When referring to French bread what does the term "batard" refer to?

Discussion in 'Pastries & Baking' started by chefjohnpaul, Dec 11, 2000.

  1. chefjohnpaul

    chefjohnpaul

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    What does "batard" mean in terms of French bread?
     
  2. chefjohnpaul

    chefjohnpaul

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    Thanks for the response, being a cuisine chef I was familiar with classical sauce batard and its having no legitimat mother sauce base thus an illigitimate sauce and thus the name. But I didn't know what the bread term referred to. Thanks.

    P.S.When you mean larger do you mean wider or longer. The parbaked ones we were considering from SYSCO for our institutional service were only 18" long and our baker thought batard had to do with the texture of the crumb, any comments on this?



    [This message has been edited by chefjohnpaul (edited 12-11-2000).]
     
  3. cape chef

    cape chef

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    chefJohnpaul,the batarde has nothing to do with the crumb. Please don't tell your baker I said this!! As in the sauce you referred to It is based on something familiar then modified. The batarde is a little longer and if you hold a bagguette end to end and gently squeeze like a accordion to widen the middle, that is what a Batarde looks like
    cc
     
  4. chefjohnpaul

    chefjohnpaul

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    So is the batard a little longer or a little wider?
     
  5. cape chef

    cape chef

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    johnpaul, I just visited your web site. Very nice.So why are you so concerned with the size of a batarde?
    Or is this only a test? [​IMG]
    cc
     
  6. chefjohnpaul

    chefjohnpaul

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    So why are you so concerned with the size of a batarde?

    Well, the Food Manager of our operation got a description from SYSCO of par baked batarde loaves that really didn't explain what made them a batarde loaf, so the question was what defined a loaf as 'batarde.
    I knew the sauce definition but not the bread definition, and our baker believed it had to do with the crumb and the yeast, and the F&B conjectured that it was made from a fresh start of yeast and not from a 'mother batch' left over from the last batch, so we took our little discussion and opened it to the ChefTalk experts. The rest is history.

    So if I got it straight a batarde loaf is a little shorter and a little wider than a baguette, correct? Is there any reason for the illigitimate reference?

    I'm glad you enjoyed the site. Any suggestions?
     
  7. isa

    isa

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    Bâtard: A bread weighting about half a pound, a bit shorter then the baguette.
     
  8. chefjohnpaul

    chefjohnpaul

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    Excellent, Chefs & Bakers!

    But why is it called a "batard"?
     
  9. cape chef

    cape chef

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    Chefjohnpaul, You are correct to assume that sauce batarde is called so because of having no direct relationship to a "mother sauce"
    Also I have seen this sauce bound with egg yolks. All the other ingredients are correct
    cc
     
  10. mudbug

    mudbug

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    According to the Paris Bread and Bakery Wordbook:

    Bâtard: same weight as a baguette, but shorter and less elegant, made from the squatty end of the rolled out dough.

    There are many other definitions you might want to browse: http://www.paris-anglo.com/guide/ent...read_word.html

    If you're really interested in the orgin of the word "" you should be able to find something on its etmology in the The Oxford English Dictionary: http://www.oed.com/
     
  11. chefjohnpaul

    chefjohnpaul

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    Bradchef,

    You da man! Thanks so much. Now tell me, with sauce batard, is it because it had no legitimate 'mother sauce' base, or was it a sauce that was manipulated into another. It was just water, roux, lemon, butter, and seasoning, correct?



    [This message has been edited by chefjohnpaul (edited 12-14-2000).]
     
  12. nick.shu

    nick.shu

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    personally, i could not tell you the actual reason why a batard is called so - however, a smaller version of the bagette is not the batard, but called a ficelle, - a batard is more like a very squat football with a flat top and bottom.

    But like i said, i couldnt really tell you why a batard is so, but i will endeavour to find out.
     
  13. chefjohnpaul

    chefjohnpaul

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    Nick.Shu

    Now our baker says the batard loaves he's had are the shape you've described and the yeast was allowed to go a little longer. He said it was close in texture to a ciabatta loaf. What say you Nick.Shu?

    (Wow, I can't believe the response to this question!)
     
  14. isa

    isa

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    A ficelle is a thinner version of the baguette. It has the same lenght or just about. A batard is wider and shorther.
     
  15. nick.shu

    nick.shu

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    im just going off memories of a job that i had about 13 years ago - the batard that this particular establishment had used your standard french bread recipe. Along with these loaves, there were others using the white french bread recipe, i.e. Epis, rognons, etc. However, i do believe that there are "batards" made from wholemeal and possibly rye breads.

    With reference to ciabatta, i think, that the batards are lighter in texture to ciabatta, due to the lighter crust of the batard - but i can check.

    [This message has been edited by Nick.Shu (edited 12-18-2000).]
     
  16. chefjohnpaul

    chefjohnpaul

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    Nick.Shu

    The batards our baker has had at two different places both had the nature of ciabatta in that the yeast was really allowed to develop. But regardless of the rising, or crumb, or anything else are we not mainly talking about 'batard' being primarily a shape of the loaf?
     
  17. nick.shu

    nick.shu

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    going on what i remember, there was base french bread recipe made for production and pretty much all off the bread was made from this one base - my assumption, and i shall say that until i confirm this, is that: yes batard would refer to the shape rather than any other production technique.

    Unfortunately, my main reference is closed until feb, but i can check other sources and i will try to get back to you.