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If memory serves, once upon a time popular opinion held the earth was the center of the galaxy, the world was flat, bleeding was the best method of treated diseases, epilepsy was demon possession, microscopic organisms living on everything was preposterous... need I go on?

Reality exists independently of your opinion of it.

Perception is your understanding of reality and like all human perception, fundamentally flawed.
 
Scientists then used their industry tools to convince people otherwise and a new school of thought was begun. People's perceptions changed based on the new information.

Perception isn't static.
 
If memory serves, once upon a time popular opinion held the earth was the center of the galaxy, the world was flat, bleeding was the best method of treated diseases, epilepsy was demon possession, microscopic organisms living on everything was preposterous... need I go on?
During those times, that was reality. Until someone could prove that reality wrong and change the popular opinion. Another significant difference here is we are talking about something that is abstract, not concrete. Something that is man-made, not natural. Anytime we try to classify man-made objects, perception and opinion drive reality.
 
KY, are you looking for how the word "pizza" is used in its country of origin?  For italians "pizza" means cake or pie, and i think i told of my astonishment when my mother in law looked at the chocolate cake i'd made and said, "Oh, you brought a pizza"!!!!

I just got back from Turkey and there there was a kind of bread called pida which is related to the word "pita" and both in word and in appearance are related to pizza, and i think there is probably not a culture in the world that eats bread that didn't originally eat some kind of flatbread cooked on a hot stone.  Interesting that the same root is used in languages of such diverse language groups. 

Anyway, i believe that in other regions (I'm in Latium, the region of Rome) the word Pizza generally refers to "Pizza Napolitana" which is what we call pizza in the states, with its tomato and mozzarella, but also friarelli and sausages ((brocolletti, or broccoli rape) or any number of other stuff on top (I've never encountered any pizza with chicken in any form but it would still be called pizza, even if looked at funny).  It can also be simply oil and salt, still pizza ("Pizza bianca").  Though even savory tarts and pies would likely be considered pizza. 
 
Siduri, I was just thiking about your MIL saying that. So glad you showed up.

KK, I don't understand the difference.

Are you saying that plating, rather than ingredients, are a determining factor? To me, a tortilla chip doesn't change it's nature just because you laid it flat instead of piling it randomly with its brothers.
Why yes that is what I'm saying. It is the orientation of ingredients that defines a pizza is it not? The fact that the tortilla chips form the base and the cheese and sauce form the toppings makes perfect sense to me. Dough, cheese, and sauce can all have other orientations besides pizza can they not? If you roll up a whole pizza is it still a pizza.... or is it a stromboli? If you fold a pizza in half is it still a pizza or is it a calzone? And though you may not like deep dish pizza it is sitll in fact a pizza. You're calling it a casserole because you want to, but it doesn't change the fact that it is still a pizza. Or should I say rather "To me, a pizza doesn't change its nature just because you piled it on thicker and bake it longer."
 
Discussion starter · #30 ·
Siduri, what I'm actually asking is if there really is some thing called pizza.

I know it's origins, and the way it was made in Naples. And I know what was meant by pizza when I was growing up. Pizza (or pizza pie, as it was called):

1. Was purchased in an Italian restaurant that mostly specialized in it, although other dishes were available. If you grew up in New York (as I did) you could also buy it as locations that specialized in selling it by the slice. There were no chains in those days.

2. Was built on a yeasted flat bread which was formed by stretching, not rolling. This produced a thin, slightly chewy crust, usually with a thicker bread-line ring around the edge.

3. Had a limited number of toppings. These always included tomato sauce and mozzarella cheese. Other common ones were pepperoni, mushrooms, and assorted veggies. And, of course, anchovies.

In short, it was one variation or another of Neopolitan pizza. No problems.

When I lived in Boston, a similar condition prevailed. Naturally, being a New Yorker I wasn't allowed to admit it, but some of the best pizza I've ever eaten was in the North End.

So, I thought I knew what pizza was.

Then I moved to the Chicago area. First time we had pizza it was unusual. The crust was thin, crispy, and had no bread edge. It was cut in little squares instead of wedges as it's supposed to be. And the less said about the toppings the better. And we discovered that thing called deep dish pizza. Deep dish, as I've said before, can be very tasty. But to me it's a casserole, not a pizza. Others, obviously, disagree.

And then I visited southern California, and was exposed to things like pizza topped with Canadian bacon and pineapple, and a host of other weird toppings. And the crust was usually rolled, rather than stretched, giving it a totally different consistency.

Now, on this thread, we have a number of opinions that are so diverse as to make the word "pizza" meaningless as a specific culinary term.

When you were in Turkey did you get to enjoy lamejun? Seems to me, most of the participants on this thread would consider that to be a pizza.
 
Even the scarcely topped pizza bianca cooked in the traditional pizza method is a stretch to call it a pie. It's merely seasoned flat bread.

Focaccia is definitely bread but the line between the end of focaccia and the beginning of pizza is pretty fuzzy and broad.
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
Who are we to try to say what is and isn't a pizza?

Interesting outlook, Tyler.

Who are we to say what is and isn't a meat loaf? Or a ragout of beef? Or a chicken paprikash? Or a pan-fried trout? Or, just to bring it home, a shrimp-stuffed mirliton?

A word or phrase either represents a specific dish (or a related group of such dishes, or a style of preparing such dishes) or it doesn't. If I say "meatloaf" you immediately have a mental image of what that means. And 99% of the people hearing that word will have a mental image that's so similar as to make no never mind. That's how we use language to communicate.

As we've seen, however, if I say "pizza" it creates a diversity of images, many of which are totally dissimilar. Which means that there's no such thing as pizza after all (which, no doubt, will come as a hardship to every college student in the U.S.)
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
Koukouvagia, one question:

If I make a chicken pot pie, but leave off the top crust, is it then a pizza?
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
Focaccia is definitely bread but the line between the end of focaccia and the beginning of pizza is pretty fuzzy and broad.

Phil, doesn't that fly in the face of your earlier contention that the crust and toppings have to be baked together?

Anyone I know who uses focaccia as the base starts with it already baked, adds the toppings, and rebakes it. In short, no different than English muffin pizza.

Question: if you start out to make, say, an olive focaccia, is the finished product bread? Or is it pizza?
 
Siduri, what I'm actually asking is if there really is some thing called pizza.

I know it's origins, and the way it was made in Naples. And I know what was meant by pizza when I was growing up. Pizza (or pizza pie, as it was called): which, i guess, would mean "pie pie"

1. Was purchased in an Italian restaurant that mostly specialized in it, although other dishes were available. If you grew up in New York (as I did) you could also buy it as locations that specialized in selling it by the slice. There were no chains in those days.

2. Was built on a yeasted flat bread which was formed by stretching, not rolling. This produced a thin, slightly chewy crust, usually with a thicker bread-line ring around the edge.

3. Had a limited number of toppings. These always included tomato sauce and mozzarella cheese. Other common ones were pepperoni, mushrooms, and assorted veggies. And, of course, anchovies.

In short, it was one variation or another of Neopolitan pizza. No problems.

When I lived in Boston, a similar condition prevailed. Naturally, being a New Yorker I wasn't allowed to admit it, but some of the best pizza I've ever eaten was in the North End.Why didn't I know you lived in Boston. My mother grew up in the north end.

So, I thought I knew what pizza was.

Then I moved to the Chicago area. First time we had pizza it was unusual. The crust was thin, crispy, and had no bread edge. It was cut in little squares instead of wedges as it's supposed to be. Well, what they call "pizza a taglio" here, (cut-type pizza) is cut in squares, i believe piantadosi's had that in the NE in boston back then - but it's baked on a large rectangular baking pan, and sold in small shops without seats, wrapped with half the piece sticking out so you can eat it on the street, or wrapped to take home. But here, that pizza is pretty thick and sturdier than the round pizza. And the less said about the toppings the better. And we discovered that thing called deep dish pizza. Deep dish, as I've said before, can be very tasty. But to me it's a casserole, not a pizza. Others, obviously, disagree.Well, here, you're talking about american pizza. right? The thing is that names are what we use them for, and words change meaning over the centuries - "awful" meant full of awe - and "silly" meant holy - and "buxom" meant pliable. Now they mean something very different. Crossing cultures is even more radical and fast a change - in italian "basket" means basketball and "night" means night club and "golf" means pullover. Like "pepperoni" - in italian "peperone" means pepper (bell pepper to be precise). What americans call "pepperone" is called "salame piccante" here - hot salami. So let them call Chicago deep dish pizza "pizza" if they want.

And then I visited southern California, and was exposed to things like pizza topped with Canadian bacon and pineapple, and a host of other weird toppings. And the crust was usually rolled, rather than stretched, giving it a totally different consistency. Aha, in Rome the crust is usually paper thin, somewhat crispy, and rolled. I thought that was a sign of inauthentic pizza when i first came here, but it's just roman pizza. In all the rest of italy, as far as i know it's stretched. Certainly in Naples it is, where it is much thicker.

Now, on this thread, we have a number of opinions that are so diverse as to make the word "pizza" meaningless as a specific culinary term. I wouldn't say so, since the variations in the Land of Pizza are also so diverse as to be unrecognizable too sometimes, except that they all have a bread dough base and some savory toppings (though white pizza with nutella has become popular lately over here).

When you were in Turkey did you get to enjoy lamejun? Seems to me, most of the participants on this thread would consider that to be a pizza. Yeah, that's why i didn't get it, since it looked too much like pizza and i wanted to eat stuff i don't usually find. I did get a form of white pizza with my meal once and another time a form of freshly-cooked puffy, hollow-inside pita (I believe that's what they called pida, but i'm not sure).
 
Focaccia is definitely bread but the line between the end of focaccia and the beginning of pizza is pretty fuzzy and broad.

Phil, doesn't that fly in the face of your earlier contention that the crust and toppings have to be baked together?

Anyone I know who uses focaccia as the base starts with it already baked, adds the toppings, and rebakes it. In short, no different than English muffin pizza.

Question: if you start out to make, say, an olive focaccia, is the finished product bread? Or is it pizza?
Actually, I think it illustrates more why I think Pizza is a sandwich. The issue of how it is baked was to differentiate it from the Hot Brown though of course ingredients and flavor to enter into it too.

To say that pizza dough is crust when topped and bread when not seems untenable to me. It's bread either way so what's on it makes it a sandwich.
 
KY, I had a Lebanese friend at university that would make sfiha, or Lebanese pizza (as he would refer to it). My understanding is it's the same thing as lamejun, right?
 
Who are we to try to say what is and isn't a pizza?

Interesting outlook, Tyler.

Who are we to say what is and isn't a meat loaf? Or a ragout of beef? Or a chicken paprikash? Or a pan-fried trout? Or, just to bring it home, a shrimp-stuffed mirliton?
Precisely! The only difference would be in those dishes that describe their ingredients, i.e. chicken paprikash, pan-fried trout, shrimp-stuff mirliton. If you were to take clams and stuff them inside of an acorn squash, that would not be shrimp-stuffed mirliton. I think that goes without saying. However, we can turn to the example used in another thread. What is pesto? Any sauce made with basil, oil, pine nuts, salt, garlic, and hard cheese, regardless of the method of combining? Or is it a sauce made from combining herbs, nuts, garlic and oil in a mortar & pestle? Who are we to say what is and isn't pesto? If it's pesto to you, then it's pesto. However, referring to an exact dish is a different story, i.e. pesto genovese.

All that to say that I'm very open to different dishes being considered pizza. In the end, if it tastes good, does it matter what it's called?
 
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