Trying to decide between the Konosuke HD2, Mizuno Tanrenjo Akitada Blue #2 and the Masamoto KS Wa Gy

Discussion in 'Cooking Knife Reviews' started by jacko9, Oct 31, 2014.

  1. jacko9

    jacko9

    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    I have been looking to buy new 240mm Gyuto (changed the length from 270 to 240mm)  and have been considering these three models and help in deciding will be appreciated.

    1) Konosuke HD2 laser

    2) Mizuno Tanrenjo Akitada Blue #2

    3) Masamoto KS White 

    I think that the Konosuke is cut from sheet semi-stainless steel and ground to shape while the other two are forged carbon steel forge welded to soft iron outer layers.

    Will the forging type knives have a more refined microstructure that will give better edge retention over a knife cut from sheet stock?

     Does any of this fabrication technique make any difference in knives? 

    Does anybody have any experience comparing the performance of these knives?

    Thanks,

    Jack
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2014
  2. mrbushido

    mrbushido

    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    I have the konosuke hd2 270mm gyuto and love it sharpens so easy. Holds a good edge for long and gets so sharp.

    And its semi Stainless but i feel its the samme as Stainless in corrosion and piting.

    Love mine
     
  3. jacko9

    jacko9

    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Thanks, do you have any issues with cutting hard root veggies like Jicama, Parsnipo, carrots, radishes, etc? I have seen that some folks talk about the Knon HD as a fragile knife when it comes to breaking down chicken and such.
     
  4. mrbushido

    mrbushido

    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Dont dare use it on bone!

    But use it on hard thing rot vegetables love sweet potatos so heck of a lot of thoose.

    Using now about 15 degree on each side with 30 degre microbevel on left side. Can go much lower and sharper but i want durability too.

    I am a lefty that why the micro on left side :)
     
  5. mrbushido

    mrbushido

    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    But got a heavier gyuto just in case its to heavy stuff
     
  6. jacko9

    jacko9

    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    I have a nice Wusthof cleaver for bone work, I just want a great knife for veggies and such.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2014
  7. denverveggienut

    denverveggienut

    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    12
    Exp:
    At home cook
    Jack- I don't have any experience with any of those three knives, but I would like to volunteer that the type of procedure by which a knife is made should be pretty far down on the list of characteristics you use to choose between knives. Even steel type isn't critical. More important are profile (flat spot or not, rounded edge, pointy at the tip or less so, blade height at heel, etc.), and grind (thin behind the edge? good food release?). Also- you mention edge retention. What are you using right now? If you're using German stainless, all three of these knives will be head and shoulders above what you have now. Probably the "worst" edge retention of the three would be the Masamoto, but in my experience, well-done white #2 edge retention is still just fine for a home cook. How do you sharpen?
     
  8. jacko9

    jacko9

    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Thanks,  Right now my Chefs knife is one I made from a kit 35 years ago with 1080 Carbon steel.  It is 12" (300mm) long and I sharpen it every few weeks.  I also have a few Wusthof pairing knives, and a set of Henckels Twinstar Plus knives that I'm not particularly fond of.  I got my wife a Global small Santoku which fits her hands perfectly but, doesn't hold an edge very well.

    I agree with your characteristics with regard to profile, grind, etc and that is one of the ways I narrowed down my selection to the three knives listed above.  Before retirement, my job required me to interact with a group of metallurgists that supported our product line and with forgings grain structure and refinement was important along with many other attributes so you can see where my fabrication questions come from.  Perhaps this is the wrong forum to ask such a question.

    As far as sharpening goes, I'm a woodworker that uses Japanese chisels, hand planes and saws on a regular basis and I sharpen every week on stones.
     
  9. rick alan

    rick alan

    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    151
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    Forging certainly produces a significant improvement for most alloys, even with some of the high-tech alloys like SG2/R2.  Though I do not know of any who are offering forged knives from alloys like S10V, S110V, SRS15 or HAP40, the latter 2 seem to be the kitchen knife darlings right now.  Apparently the rolling process that goes into making the sheet is enough for these alloys.

    Heat treat is also critical, but makers who go through the trouble of hand-forging typically do not skimp here either.

    Rick
     
  10. rick alan

    rick alan

    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    151
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    I'm a holdout when it comes to alloy, but DVN is pretty spot-on here.  Of the 3 knives you've mentioned the Misuno's blue #2 has it bit more for edge retention, but I know nothing of their other attributes aside from the appearance of some belly to the profile.  Both the Masamoto and Kono are very thin behind the edge and have classic Sab profiles (Masamoto said to be slightly better here), the Kono has better edge retention and is of course a laser.  All of these steels sharpen very easily, and can be kept going for quite a while with a ceramic steel.

    You might also consider the Akifusa.  It gets very excellent reviews, the SRS15 steel is hard to beat in terms of both fine grain and edge retention, though it is a bit more difficult to sharpen.

    Rick
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2014
  11. jacko9

    jacko9

    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Thanks Rick,

    I'll take a look at the Akifusa.

    Jack
     
  12. allen lum

    allen lum

    Messages:
    44
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Line Cook
    Jacko9 

    Aloha, from Hawaii, I have experience with all three knives. Not too knowledgeable on heat treatment procedures, or if it will produce a finer grain structure, but from a real world experience all three knives are great. I currently own a 240mm KS, 150mm HD2 petty, (but i do want a Gyuto too) both great knives.

    OK. Jack, few questions to ask you.

    Do you mind the extra maintenance in having a carbon knife?

    Since you are currently using German knives did you like the weight of the knives or would consider a lighter weight knife? The HD2 being the lightest and thinnest followed by the KS and than the Mizuno.

    Do you use a steel on your knives? 

    What type of Stones do you use? Grit?

      In my personal experience DenverVeggieNut is correct the white #2 doesn't really have the best edge retention, but what it lacks in, it is so easy to sharpen back to an amazing edge. The blue steel in the Mizuno will be great long lasting edge but in my opinion doesn't produce such a refined edge, but nothing too shabby, definitely much better than any softer German knives will. Finally, the HD2 in my experience with my petty the edge retention I can say is in between the white and the blue, but sharpening it (once trained to your style of sharpening) will be very similar to any high quality white steel. To answer your question about cutting harder root veggies, I feel that a thinner laser type knife will excel at cutting carrots and jicama, because of its thin and fluid grind, the knife just glides through the item without wedging. The only things I would not cut with anything really thin or flexible knife would be veggies such as Kaboca Squash, or other type pumpkins.

    Had used all three knives (minus the HD2, but I do have a Ikkanshi Tadasuna 270mm Inox (Ginsanko Stainless Steel) but does compare to it very similarly Grind, Blade Shape and Weight) I still can't decide which I would pick out of the three. For my personal Masamoto KS, I maybe got a lemon or just bad QC (which they are known for) handle and install. For the handle, the d shape handle first of all totally does not even come close to what you play for, ferrule was not even close to being flush with the ho wood handle. Another flaw on my handle, was that it was not sealed with epoxy, water got in and rusted my blade, had to get a custom handle for it but love it now. Positive notes, the KS has an unique profile, somewhat of a shear shape which give you very little belly, having a larger flat spot.

    Both, the HD2 and the Mizuno have the traditional blade shapes of most gyutos, Hd2 having a bit more of a flat spot compared to the Mizuno. Both knives have good quality control, personally I feel Konosuke has a bit better finishes overall.

    To end this very long post, All great knives just comes down to the nitty gritty, of weight, ease of use, or even options. I know the mizuno will have the biggest customization's' on JapaneseChefknives, followed by the Konosuke HD2 with handle options, and the least with the Masamoto KS, maybe just ferrule options.

    PS: Aside from the flaws in my KS, now it is a go to knife in my bag because it very versatile, thin edge but has a bit of weight to it so I don't have to use as much pressure. I also hope to have all three knives one day. If you are also considering other options I could make up a few other good suggestions that could be suit you too. 

    Hope this helped. Happy shopping.                   

    Allen Lum 
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2014
  13. jacko9

    jacko9

    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Thank you Allen for sharing your experience,

    Right now I have a 300mm carbon chefs knife and the maintenance is no problem.  I don't use a steel on my knives and I have a set of Bester stones 700, 1200 grit and a 6000grit King Stone and a set of Shapton glass stones 500, 1000, 2000 and 8000 grit.  I use stones a lot since I'm a woodworker and use Japanese Chisels and Hand planes.  My 300mm carbon knife has a 2.7mm spline with a rather flat grind so I get a lot of food sticking.

    Allen, since you use all of these knives do any stand out with food sticking to the blade?  I think that the Kono HD is a flatter side profile and that sliced food like potatoes might stick easier?

    Jack
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2014
  14. jacko9

    jacko9

    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Rick,

    I noticed on an earlier post that jacobrb02 had micro chipping with the edge on this knife (the Akifusa).  It looks like he got it re-sharpened and was going to switch out from using a bamboo cutting board but, I haven't seen any recent comments to see if the micro chipping was just from the initial edge, his technique or the cutting board. 

    Have you seen any other feedback with the SRES15 steel?

    Jack
     
  15. mrbushido

    mrbushido

    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Havent got any stiction with my konosuke hd2 270mm gyuto sharpen slightly convex edge
     
  16. chefedb

    chefedb

    Messages:
    5,516
    Likes Received:
    177
    Exp:
    Retired Chef
    I notice you are all Home Cooks. Let me clue you in, don't try and impress everyone with the most expensive knife. No matter which one you buy they will all cut. The trick is to get the one that feels best in your hand. It could very well be none of these overpriced  knives, Only you can decide.
     
  17. mrbushido

    mrbushido

    Messages:
    237
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Haha lol? Dont trying to impress trying to be honest about a knive ;-)

    So excuse me hah
     
  18. jacko9

    jacko9

    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Chef Edb,

    I try not to buy on price but there is an issue with getting one that feels best in your hands because I have not found a place that retails these knives since Japan Woodworker closed their retail operation last summer.

    I have a lot of knives that cut just fine and after putting a new edge on my 300mm carbon chefs knife I decided that I would keep it and get a great performer in a 240mm Gyuto.  I do have many decades experience with Japanese woodworking chisel, hand plane irons and saws and I want to get a knife that can hold that kind of sharp edge (and feel good in my hands).

    I value the voice of experience and one characteristic I value is minimal stiction when cutting onions, potatoes, etc.  As you can imagine, I'll only use this knife a few times a week so things like heft, etc that people that work long shifts value is not a problem for me.  It's pretty hard to wade through all of the terms about knife shapes, grinds, etc.

    Jack
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2014
  19. millionsknives

    millionsknives

    Messages:
    2,472
    Likes Received:
    466
    Exp:
    Professional Caterer
    A lot of us that shop online have gotten good at guessing how a knife performs from pictures of the profile and choil shot, steel type, hardness.  Between basic specifications and discussion online, we have a good guess without ever touching the knife.  Not every city has a good knife shop.
     
  20. mike9

    mike9

    Messages:
    2,452
    Likes Received:
    400
    Exp:
    Former Chef
    The Masamoto KS is an extremely light knife and white steel takes a stupid sharp edge easily, but retention is a little less than blue, or AS.  I had a HD and it was a really nice knife - 270mm Kiritsuke tip gyuto.  No experience with the Mizuno, but this fella does -