Trying to decide between Mac Pro or Elephant Sabatier

[stephenb]

Hello,

I've been lurking on these forums for the better part of a week trying to get as much information about new knife choices for me.

Let me explain why I have these two as my choices and maybe you guys could help me in the right direction.

Overall I need a knife that will be symmetrical as I am left handed and my significant other who will also be using them is right handed and I tend to like a french profile.

The reasons I like the Elephant is that its a french profile, the carbon steel interests me and its symmetrical.

What I don't like about the Elephant is the rumors I've read about their quality control issues.

What I like about the Mac Pro is again the french profiles, Japanese steel and it is also symmetrical.

What I don't like about the Mac Pro is that it's not carbon and (I know its vain) it's ugly!

I'd be willing to move into a Japanese profile knives but then it gets hard to find symmetrical edges.

Any advice?

 

[pensacola tiger]

Don't be overly concerned with symmetry on a double-beveled knife, as an 80/20 edge can be sharpened to 50/50 in a half-dozen sessions. Plus, the 'steering' of such an edge is nowhere near that of a single-beveled knife.

Just to give you another alternative, have you looked at the Hiromoto AS line? Carbon steel core/edge and stainless cladding. Many feel it is the best of both worlds. I have a sujihiki from that line and think it is an excellent knife.

 

[algavinn]

The mac pro isnt ugly! Actually I like its aesthetics far more than the Sabs, but that's me.

Also I think you should keep in mind ergonomics. I've handled a considerable number of knives over the years, and personally the mac pro is just...astounding, miles and eons and continents above and beyond almost every other knife I've handled. If you're going to be doing much work with your knife, make sure to give consideration to that.

I'll leave anything else to BDL and the others, however. Best of luck in your selection.

 

[boar_d_laze]

Good questions! Excellent choices!

If you're willing to deal with the little bit of extra care a carbon requires, they're probably equally good choices -- each with its own strengths and compromises.

Before getting into the specifics, could you answer a few questions for me?

How do you sharpen now? That is, are you already a good sharpener? By "good," I mean, can you raise a burr? Chase it? Deburr? Not, "Are you the sharpening master of the midwest?"

If all that burr stuff is leaving you in the dust, or you sharpen in a way that doesn't involve the concept... Do you use some other effective method, like an Edge Pro?

If you're not already a good sharpener with your own kit, how are you planning on keeping the knife sharp?

How do you rate your own knife skills?

How important is stiffness? Both of your choices are very stiff. In fact the MAC Pro is the stiffest Japanese knife in its class that I know of. If you can live with a little flex (and without the support and guarantee) there are some other Japanese made knives you might like to consider -- Masamoto in particular for its combination of ergonomics and steel quality.

On the other hand, it might be just as good to keep the number of choices down. What do you say?

Do you want or need an especially roomy grip? Do you want to limit your grip choices to "outstanding" like the two you've already chosen? Or, can you tolerate very good?

How about, "most people like it?" For instance, most people like the Hiromoto grip, but no one seems to be nuts about it -- also, it's a little slender for some people.

Speaking of grips, I slightly prefer the K-Sabatier POM handle to the Thiers-Issard stabilized wood for its feel. Would you be willing to consider a K-Sab au carbone? Or is TI the only Sab for you?

I know what you mean about the MAC's looks. Don't worry, the logo is only slik-screened on, it will wash off pretty quickly.

Waiting to hear,
BDL

 

[stephenb]

Ok, I get these one by one!

Yes!

I'm going to have to admit I don't sharpen [yet!]. My knives are middle of the road wusties right now. I use a honing steel before every time a cook and then I send my knives down the street to get sharpened once a year. Sharpening is something I've been thinking about getting into and if I get new knives I would still have the wusties to practice on.

Middle of the road I suppose but I've never really compared myself. I can prepare relatively fast while being uniform and am a decent carver. I don't do too much super thin stuff.

Most of what I prepare is typical home meals with supermarket prepared meats but I think I also dress whole ducks, peking chickens, ect. more then an average at home cook. So what do you think? Thin might be good and I could get one thicker blade do deal with the boney stuff. Like I've said I have wusties right now so I'm used to a thick steel.

We might as well explore all the choices even it its going to make my stress even more!

Obviously I would like a good grip but if you think they come at the expense of significant then it's not overly important.

The reason I went with the TI sab is because it is a beautiful knife line and seems easier to get in america.

Well that's good to hear.


I would love a Japanese knife but I would need one as close to a symmetrical edge as possible.

How does the Hiromoto AS line fit into my options? (IE is it left friendly?)

Thank you very much for the help everyone!

 

[pensacola tiger]

The sujihiki I have is 50/50. I believe that they all are. That means it's neutral, not biased to left or right, not that it matters much. An 80/20, or even a 90/10 edge will not be much of an issue, as I mentioned before, and repeated sharpening sessions can easily change any bias to 50/50.

 

[boar_d_laze]

[font=&quot]Hiromoto has two lines, AS and G3 within their top Western style line, Tenmi Jyuraku. They ship with varying symmetry from 50/50 to around 70/30 right-handedness. It doesn't seem likely that it's entirely by accident in that I've never heard of them shipping a left-handed knife.

The entire issue of handedness is overblown here. Any competent sharpener can move the bevel over on almost any gyuto or chef's knife without any real difficulty. Some alloys are very hard to profile, but we don't have to worry about anything more difficult than the Hiromoto AS which isn't all that difficult. I've profiled and sharpened several Hiro AS in less than 45 minutes each on India and Arkansas stones.

Getting back to the Hiromotos. Both the AS and G3 are very good knives. I owned four AS, and liked them but was sufficiently unimpressed that I moved them on and kept my old Sabs. In my opinion the Sabatiers had better geometry and agility and more comfortable handles. Still, the AS are very good knives.

Moreover, it turns out that I don't like "cladded" knives, especially of the san-mai aka warikomi type because they lack a liveliness in the cut and on the board. More than anything else, that was the deal breaker for me. While several other people have said the same thing, to be fair, it's a very uncommon reaction.

All in all, I prefer the G3 to the AS, not for their stain resistance (which doesn't matter to me one way or the other), but for their liveliness. All in all though, as good as the Hiros are, there are a bunch of knives in the same price range which I like better.

Japanese Carbon:

Before getting into the individual knives, they're all a bit thin and whippy compared to a Sabatier carbon. I wouldn't use any of them without having something heavy duty for things like portioning spare ribs, cutting gourds, splitting chickens, etc. Also, all of these run around HrC. And, to cut to the chase, the Masamoto HC is the real standout. [/font]

• [font=&quot]Kanemasa "E"[font=&quot] -- Value leader. Some fit and finish issues, like a sharp spine and back -- but these can be fixed by the user. Decent handle and geometry. Very reactive steel which doesn't exhibit visible corrosion so much as smell funny until it ultimately settles down. Again, the user can do things to prevent the reaction.[/font][/font]
• [font=&quot]Kikuichi Elite[font=&quot] (carbon) -- Excellent all around knife. Good value. Me likee.[/font][/font]
• [font=&quot]Masamoto HC[font=&quot] -- One of the two or three best knives I've ever used. There are some F&F issues which can be resolved by communicating with the seller before purchase. However, they're probably more than you're willing to spend. Excellent comfort, agility, edge taking, and edge holding characteristics, etc. You name it, the HC does it well. The outstanding feature of Masamotos generally is not what they do right, but that they do everything right and nothing at all wrong; and the HC is the quintessential in that way. The HC heads the class of "arguably, the best mass-produced, western-style chef's knife at any price." If you can live with carbon, and you're willing to pay the price -- this is the knife. [/font][/font]
• [font=&quot]Masamoto CT[font=&quot] -- Without going too much into the details of what makes the HC alloy different from the CT alloy they're very, very similar. Not quite as good in terms of edge characteristics, but it's a difference only an extremely good sharpener using a very good kit would notice.[/font][/font]
• [font=&quot]Misono Sweden[font=&quot] -- Excellent knife with excellent ergonomics and edge characteristics. However, it's about the most reactive (corrosion prone) carbon steel I've ever used. The knife requires a patina or frequent cleaning with a corrosion inhibitor like baking soda. [/font][/font]
• [font=&quot]Togiharu Virgin[font=&quot] -- A sort of clone of the Masamoto HC and CT, with a slightly less good handle and geometry. Probably the same alloy as the HC, and in that sense, a value. Being slightly less good than a Masamoto means being very good, indeed. To whatever extent I sound less than enthusiastic, it's misleading. Good value.[/font][/font]

[font=&quot]French Carbon[font=&quot]:[/font][/font]

[font=&quot]The three modern French carbons, K-Sabatier au carbone, Mexeur et Cie Sabatier au carbone and Thiers Issard **** Elephant Sabatier (“TI” from now on) carbon share very similar blade and handle geometry. The K-Sabs and Mexeurs both have POM handles, while the TIs have stabilized wood. The Mexeurs are hardened a little less, and I don’t like their edge characteristics as much as I like the K-Sabs and the TIs. I mention them only for completeness.[/font]

[font=&quot]Of the older knives, the “Canadians” and the “Massifs” appear to be the from the same stock, and share the same construction. That is, the only bolster is the finger guard, which is itself a “true bolster,” and the product of martinet forging. The Nogents are an older style based on a rat-tail tang with a somewhat blocky ebony handle. [/font]

[font=&quot]Almost all of these knives have incredibly good ergonomics, with the exception of Massif “chef de chefs” which aren’t, properly speaking, chef’s knives. Otherwise, you can rate them all “the best” along with the Masamaoto HC. The carbon blades take a very good edge, far better than European stainless, but not quite as good as any of the Japanese carbon or stainless knives. They are subject to waving and rolling, but fortunately can be trued on a steel very easily. The alloys are very tough and it’s very difficult to chip or tear them. These knives are tough enough to split the occasional chicken or trim the odd rack of ribs – but they’re not really heavy enough to do those things on a regular basis. That not only requires something a little more persuasive, but with a more obtuse edge angle as well.[/font]

[font=&quot]Anyway, here are the Sabs:[/font]

• [font=&quot]K-Sabiatier au carbone[font=&quot] – My personal favorite, if only for the practicality of a POM handle.[/font][/font]
• [font=&quot]K-Sabatier "Canadian" – Very nice knives, but plain looking.[/font]
• [font=&quot]Thiers-Issard carbon – Like all TIs, OOTB sharpening issues are frequent. They’re easily rectified by any competent sharpener when the knife is “opened up.” Very attractive knives. [/font]
• [font=&quot]Thiers-Issard "Massif" – Originally made for the Canadian market, just like the K-Sabatier Canadians. Despite TI’s marketing, they’re probably the same stock and most likely made in the fifties, rather than just after WWI. [/font]
• [font=&quot]Thiers-Issard "Nogent" – Classics. Thinner blades (a good thing) than modern Sabatiers. Pre WWII steel of good purity. Handles are old fashioned, but incredibly comfortable. If you’re into the history of cooking and you want to touch a piece of it every time you cook – these are the way to go. Just like the modern carbons, expect OOTB sharpening issues.[/font]

[font=&quot]If you’re interested in carbon you’re going to have to make up your mind between French and Japanese knives. They are very different. The French knives are more robust, and with the exception of the Masamotos have better geometry than the Japanese knives. [/font]
[font=&quot]
The Japanese knives get and stay sharper, but the French knives sharpen more easily. You can sharpen French knives effectively on oilstones (but don’t use oil!), but you can’t get the best out of Japanese knives without good waterstones. None of the Japanese knives are built with finger guards, but all of the French knives are. Some people find them a serious obstacle to sharpening, but I don’t. [/font]
[font=&quot]
[/font][font=&quot]Almost all of my knives, including all of the important ones, are French carbons. There are a few Japanese knives I’d consider swapping my Sabs for, but of those, only the Masamoto HC are on this list.
[/font]
[font=&quot]And now for something completely different...[/font]

[font=&quot]Japanese Stainless:[/font]

• [font=&quot]Hiromoto AS – Nice knife, warikomi construction with stainless jigane and AS hagane. Surprise! The knife (mostly) has AS edge characteristics. Not particularly easy to sharpen, can be made very sharp, holds the edge well. Use of a steel is iffy, but the AS doesn’t go out of true very easily. AS isn’t stainless, it’s carbon; but corrosion on the edge isn’t much of an issue with the Hiro AS. Mediocre handle, too narrow. Okay but not great geometry. Some people just love them, but in my opinion they’re just one of a number of good knives in the price range and don’t really stand out. Part of that may be because I’ve never met a warikomi knife I’ve really liked. [/font]
• [font=&quot]Hiromoto G3. Nice knife, made form a single piece of Hitachi’s excellent G3 stainless. Shares the AS handle and geometry. In my opinion, its “single steel” construction make it a better knife than the AS. It’s less expensive too.[/font]
• [font=&quot]MAC Pro – Great handle, good ergonomics, good geometry, excellent stiffness, good but not excellent edge characteristics. Okay, it’s not the best blade alloy money can buy, but only a very proficient sharpener using a top of the line kit could tell the difference – and if the edge geometry is altered to a 15/10 double bevel, it gets as sharp as anything else. The alloy is probably VG-2. A great first Japanese knife, first high quality knife, or a professional kitchen knife. Very robust by Japanese standards. Also, MAC USA provides a good guaranty and excellent support – things that don’t often go with Japanese knives. This is the knife I most often recommend.[/font]
• [font=&quot]Misono Moly -- Misono's bottom of their stainless line. Good entry level knife. Good but not great F&F. Get fairly sharp, fairly easily and stay fairly sharp for a fairly long time. Very reasonably priced.
  [/font]
• [font=&quot]MAC Ultimate – Change the goods of the MAC Pro to excellent. Expensive. “Arguably the best mass produced, western stainless chef’s knife at any price. Probably VG-5.[/font]
• [font=&quot]Masamoto VG – My personal favorite among all the Japanese stainless knives I’ve tried. Note: The blade is not made from VG-10, and is probably VG-2 or VG-5. It’s more flexible than the MAC, and not as well supported or widely sold. Those reasons are why I don’t recommend it as often. [/font]
• [font=&quot]Misono UX-10 – People love its streamlined geometry and great handle. Very sharp OOTB, and a relatively easy knife to sharpen as long as you stick to the factory geometry. Whatever alloy Misono uses is tough to move around, so not an easy knife to profile. Flexible. Expensive.[/font]
• [font=&quot]Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff (yes, with two fs) – Very comfortable knife. A little wide (not thick, thickness describes edge geometry – width is the distance from spine to edge ) at the heel for my tastes. Uses a really nice Swedish alloy called AEB-L, which is the same as Sandvik 13C26, hardened to 58HrC. These are excellent knives, and I’d recommend them more highly but they’re a little tough to get and are essentially unsupported by any American dealer. “Paul’s” in Canada deals them for Canadians, and he has a very good reputation – if you’re Canadian. [/font]
• [font=&quot]Togiharu G-1 – Great deal on a VG-10 knife. Ergonomics and geometry similar to the Masamoto, only slightly less good. Korin’s house brand. Probably an OEM effort of some hamono or other that makes a lot of Masamotos.[/font]
• [font=&quot]Togiharu Inox -- Same idea as the Misono Moly, but better all around. Attractively priced. Not as good as the other knives listed.
  [/font]

[font=&quot]European Stainless:[/font]

[font=&quot]Some very nice, very expensive customs. But there's nothing in the class of the Japanese stainless discussed in this post. Almost but not quite a total waste.
[/font]

• [font=&quot]Forschner Fibrox and Rosewoos -- Good for the price, sharpen very easily to "sort of" sharp. Lose their edge even more quickly. They accept steeling well, which is a good thing because they need it constantly. Value leader. Very tough, and not a bad choice for someone who's forced to abuse her knife. [/font]

[font=&quot]Personally, I’d narrow the stainless field to the MAC Pro and the Masamoto VG, and the carbon field to the K-Sab au carbone, Masamoto HC, Masamoto CT and TI Nogent. But those are personal choices and a lot of the factors driving them probably don’t apply to you. [/font]

[font=&quot]In any case, this should be enough information to give you an overview.[/font]

[font=&quot]Hope this helps,[/font]
[font=&quot]BDL[/font]

 

[chrislehrer]

Hey BDL, have you sharpened a Masamoto carbon yourself? I'm not questioning your knowledge, but I don't have a Sabatier around to compare to, and I obviously sharpen my Masamoto a lot. I find it stunningly easy. It's actually kind of disappointing: the Masamoto gets a screaming edge so fast that I find myself trying to go even slower and pay excess attention just to feel like I'm doing something useful. If Sabs sharpen easier than that, I'm almost disturbed.

 

[boar_d_laze]

I've sharpened both the CT and HC myself on waterstones and oilstones. The Sabs sharpen more easily on Arkansas stones.

Setting aside anomalies like carbides stuck in the edge and whatnot, all of the carbons in my list sharpen very easily on good waterstones. Within that context if there's a distinction, it's one without a difference. But it's not the only context.

Is the fact that the French carbons sharpen more easily (but not necessarily better) on Arks than the Japanese cutlery worth reporting? It is to me. And it might be to the OP as well. He might not want to invest in the full-blown waterstone set necessary to get sharpness approaching the best that some of those knives have to offer.

Any knife with sharpening issues, whether good or bad -- like the Grand Cheff and UX-10 -- got a word or two.
If I made it seem as though any of the Japanese carbons were even remotely difficult to sharpen on good waterstones -- my bad. Easy peasy.

BDL

PS. As of today I'm now the proud owner of a sweet to fairly excellent waterstone set. Haven't had the chance to use them though. My last CT blog post has the rundown: PS. As of today I'm now the proud owner of a sweet to fairly excellent waterstone set. Haven't had the chance to use them though. My last CT blog post has the rundown: ChefTalk Cooking Forums - COOK FOOD GOOD, Blogging BDL's Cookbook

Once I've run my 10" chefs on the (yellow) SS 8K, I'll get back to you on K-Sab ultimate sharpness. The last time I used a serious set, the K-Sabs fell a little behind good Japanese knives -- but that set topped out with a Shapton Pro 5K. I'm guessing they still won't get that sharp, but the jury's out.

 

[chrislehrer]

Wow. Sabs must be frighteningly easy to sharpen!

 

[stephenb]

Thank you for the thorough explanation of my choices. I think I'm going to settle on the Mac pro. It being the simplest (already 50/50 bias) and will leave me some room to "grow" into some other knives like the Hiromoto HC.

Thank you again

 

[boar_d_laze]

MAC Pro is an excellent choice.

Regarding the Hiromoto HC: You might mean the Hiromoto AS, Hiromoto G3, or the Masasmoto HC but there is no Hiromoto HC. Also, a move from MAC Pro to Hiromoto AS or G3 is not growth, it's lateral. Each knife has different postives and different compromises, but the MAC Pro is every bit as good an all-arounder as either Hiromoto. And, probably better for most since it trades an extra degree of sharpness most people can't obtain for a palpably better handle and significantly more stiffness.

The Masamoto HC is a slightly different story, but unless you decide to start a collection, the MAC Pro will likely be the last western-handled chef's knife you'll ever buy -- at least at whatever length you choose. The MAC Pro is really that good.

Now it's time to figure out sharpening.

BDL

 

[boar_d_laze]

Chris,

Frighteningly easy, yes. Let me mess with my new waterstones a couple of times before talking about absolute sharpness levels. With my previous set of waterstones, good Japanese carbon could be made sharper than the Sabs -- but not by much; while the difference on oilstones, advantage still to the Japanese, was barely noticeable. At the end of the day, it's the Sabs' geometry and handle which keep them competitive.

In my opinion, the Masamoto HC equals the best Sabs in those respects and kicks major butt in terms of sharpness -- though it gives up quite a bit in stiffness and general robustness. It's the only western handled knife on the list of gyutos I might actually buy for myself.

BDL

 

[stephenb]

Oops, I meant Masamoto!

And you're right, it's time to start this sharpening business.

 

[stephenb]

Thanks to BDL's extensive reply I went with the MAC pro. I've been using it for just over a year now! Its great! Relatively robust to others in its style but nice and agile on the board.

I've gotten into sharpening in the past few months as well with JCK's combo stone.

Now I'm thinking about a carbon steel knife and remembered this thread! Its helped me again a year it was originally written!

I'm leaving towards an antique sabatier.

One thing I was wondering was does anyone know of a small producer of high quality American made carbon steel knives?

 

[boar_d_laze]

Not that I know of, at least not without getting into (expensive) customs.  There's a guy in the PNW, a "master" knife smith actually, who makes some reasonably priced carbons, but they looked pretty rough IMO.  A woman who posts here was given a set by her husband and was raving about them a few months ago.  The sharpening advice was so weird, and the profiles so not my style, I sort of dismissed them -- but that may have been too harsh. 

I'll try and remember the knife maker's name.  In the meantime, you can just start going back through the threads.  Not a lot of women contribute in the knife threads so she ought to jump out.

The Sabatier Canadian, "Massif" and "Nogent" are all very, very good. 

BDL

 

[trooper]

BDL, What do you think of the NeNox(sp?) knives?

 

[boar_d_laze]

"Nenox" is the name Nenohi gives its western style, stainless knives.  They come in two flavors, "D" and "S."  If I'm not mistaken the "D" are now made from VG-10 (they used to be VG-1) and the S are made from "Nenox Steel" (a proprietary alloy). 

I think they're very expensive prices are not justified by their performance.  In my opinion, there are knives as good in every way for far less money.  Nenox  are extremely well made and styled, and the S lines handles are especially beautiful.  If you really love the way they look and feel how can I put a price on your aesthetic? 

I don't know much about the "wa" (Japanese) styles, but gather that at this time the same is true about them as the "yo."  

At one time Nenox didn't have much competition at the extreme high end of the knife market, but there are plenty of good blades around, and you can always get a custom handle.      

There are some really wonderful western profiles with Japanese handles which are as good or better than the best Nenox and for substantially less money. 

BDL

 

[trooper]

I was looking at this knife:

http://www.foodieforums.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?270-Review-of-the-Nenox-S1-240mm-Gyuto

From a user perspective - not a technical one - This knife has the angle-forward heel, long land on the belly and even a capped pommel. I posted a big thread on what I don't like about my UX-10, and this knife seems to address four or five of those issues. The question to BDL is: Does the steel and durability of this knife merit the cost, and is there another less expensive knife that meets these specific user requirements?

 

[boar_d_laze]

Worth it?  Not unless you really love the looks.   It's very nice and all, but way too expensive.  How about an Ikkanshi Tadatsuna western?  Or, a Kikuichi TKC?  You won't get that dramatic swept back, but still...  At any rate, the Tadatsuna's back is very nicely crowned, and it's easy enough to round off any sharp edges on the back which weren't relieved at the factory of another maker.

I think you get about the same performance from a Masamoto VG as from the Nenox, with a better handling profile -- but not the same craftsmanship.  Of course the Masamoto is less than half the price, but value is where you find it.

Heck, I think you can still buy a Haslinger for less than a Nenox S-1.  But don't let me talk you out of it.  If you're really in love with the Nenox and can afford it, wotthehell wotthehell -- live.

When I decided to add a non-Sabatier to my block, my choice was to leave the land of western handles and buy a Konosuke HD.  Considering what you seem to value about the UX-10, you may be better off choosing a similar path.  FWIW, were I to buy a stainless, high-end, western handled chef's it would probably be the Tadatsuna.

BDL