Tojiro DP F-809 240mm Gyuto a Good Budget/Entry level Intro to Japanese Knives?

Discussion in 'Cooking Knife Reviews' started by lennyd, Dec 3, 2010.

  1. lennyd

    lennyd

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    My first post here so any help on the topic or posting is appreciated!!!

    Have been reading the many discussions on the various brands (here and on other similar sites) being discussed and recommended, and most all seem to be good performers as well as seriously nice tools (some bordering art lol) but the prices of everything I find most desirable just seem high for my needs/use.

    Even though I really like the looks of the Hattori (HD FH and especially the KF) the Misono (UX10) Masamoto VG, a few of the Saikai and many others that have been recommended I just can not see coming up with nearly $200 or more for them either. I mean these are all seriously nice looking tools, appear to be very well made, and from what I have read all perform well, but may just be overkill for me etc.

    So I am seriously looking at the Tojiro DP as it seems to be a "value" as I can get the 240mm for under $100 (some are offering under $90 on eBay but would prob go with Cutlery and More or CKG), and my question is if this would be a good choice, or if it is really worth the double cost for one of the others?

    I normally subscribe to the school of paying a little more to get a quality product that will perform better and last longer, but also am a stickler for value, and understand that you dont need a million dollar CNC machine to make a widget in your garage either.

    A little background. Some pro prep and line work 20 years ago, all home cooking now, and the occasional 10-20 person affair (basic fish, chicken, beef etc) but nothing on the high end of fancy.

    Current mis matched collection includes Henckels Pro S Santoku - 6" Util - 8" Slicer - 4 Star Boning and 8" Spain Chefs, Mundial Elegance 8" Chefs, 8" bread, and 6" serated util. and an odd no name parer made in Taiwan (plus a collection of unknown nothing special pieces I hold onto for guests who want to borrow a knife etc lol)

    Most of these were purchased at discount/clearance stores or at heavy discounts from retailers. Most were under $25 and only two of the Henckels were $40 (heck the Mundials were all under $20, and so was one or two of the pro-s )

    It is not the most hi tech collection, but I have been able to get a decent sharp edge on the Germans (though I have passed their limits and had to increase the angles) and much as I am not happy with the quality of the steel on the Chefs made in Spain it can take a decent edge due to it;s being thinner etc, but it will not hold it long at all. The Mundials are actually decent for my use except for the Chefs which is cumbersome due to it's weight (I actually end up using the Pro S Santoku most of the time as it seems to hold a edge better and is sharper more often, and I find I am more comfortable with it's chopping ability etc) and the fact I can not get it to keep anything near an acute sharp edge for any reasonable amount of time. Nice handle, and the profile is more French of Japanese from many attempts to keep or get it sharp and re profiling it.

    So I am in need for a Chefs/Gyuto, and would really like to have something that will be comfortable, sharp, and "good" enough to be my new go to Knife.

    To answer what seem to be some of the more popular questions asked of posters I do use a pinch grip, have a good assortment of cutting boards (both large and small. Wood and plastic /composite) ample counter space, and do my own sharpening though I think my current assortment of stones and methods may not be the best for a Japanese gyuto based on what I have read here.

    I have an older Norton combo India oil stone that I have been using for years with water. It shows wear, and the fine side was damaged when a friend was helping out about 10 years ago and there is a crack that separates it 1/4 so I have been using only 3/4 of it for a while.

    I use two different grades of Nikken wet paper glued to hardwood blocks for finishing/ polishing. 1200 and 2000. I can get reasonably acceptable results due to a steady hand and holding angle fairly well, but have no idea how these grits relate to the ratings of Japanese whet stones, and if I would need to add any new stones to get preferred results. I have a limited budget (the same unemployment that has allowed the time to get back into cooking more seriously has also hampered funds available lol) but some of the King combo stones and the Super Stones recommended here previously to others could be done, but maybe only one or two of them and not a full set.

    Sorry for the length, but wanted to get as much info out there so that you guys can help me make the right choice!
     
  2. phaedrus

    phaedrus

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    The answer to those two questions is yes and probably.  Yes, the Tojiro DP is a great value and a flat out good knife.  Despite having knives costing three times as much I still take three Tojiro DPs to work every day.  That said, I'm not gonna give up my more expensive knives, either.  To me they're worth it.  Will they be to you?  Hard to say.  Certainly more money will get better fit and finish and better steel.  If you want a "laser" (knife nerd slang for a knife that's very, very thin and extremely sharp) then you'll have to pay more.  It's not easy to make a blade that's both very thin and durable to work with.
     
  3. phaedrus

    phaedrus

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    You'll probably be frustrated if you try to sharpen many hard Japanese knives on oil stones.  They don't cut very fast.  Water stones are the standard-of-care for J-knives.  But sandpaper is also a perfectly acceptable method.  Paper is cheaper in the short run but probably more expensive in the long run.  You needn't spend a fortune on stones, though.  I'm sure others will chime in but I think an Arashiyama 1k and a Suehiro Rika 5k would be plenty to get you started, at about $75 including shipping (from CKtG).
     
     
  4. lennyd

    lennyd

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    So maybe I should ask if the Tojiro DP gyuto is thin enough to get to the sharpness I am able to achieve from my current Pro-S Santoku? I cant seem to find too many spec's on this knife, and not being able to actually get one in my hand leaves a lot of unknowns. What I know I do not want is another heavy and thick profile like the Mundial or various Henckels and Wustof chef knives I have used in the past.

    I have found that the Tojiro is supposed to be a RC60-61, but also know there is much more to steels ability to perform in a given use than just hardness so I am not 100% on this either.

    Thanks for your reply!
     
  5. boar_d_laze

    boar_d_laze

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    Plus 1 to everything Phaedrus wrote.

    With adequate sharpening skills and decent waterstones, you can get a Tojiro much sharper than anything you can put on your Pro S with any stones in the universe -- especially a Norton IB-8.  By the way, it's only about $20 to replace the Norton with a new one.  Well worth it. 

    One of the hurdles you're going to face is sharpening kit.  I think you'll find -- I do anyway -- that nearly all of  your particular European knives actually sharpen faster and better on oilstones (used without oil) than they do on waterstones -- which means, or should mean, picking up something like an Arkansas stone or two to complete that set, and buying a separate, waterstone sharpening kit for your Japanese knife -- which will more than likely become knives as you start replacing your low performing Euros. 

    You will certainly find a huge difference between even entry level, good Japanese knives and what you're currently using.  There's also substantial difference between the "student" level Tojiro DP / Fujiwara FKM / Misono Moly, etc., with the "professional" grade knives which mostly start at about 50% more money and go up from there. Whether or not you want the difference is another story.  It's perhaps as much about personality as it is about cutting onions.

    Regarding the Tojiro:

    It's a very nice knife for the price that has undergone some improvements over the years, including changing the hagane from mystery "Swedish steel" to VG-10.  Despite the fact that they've done a lot to improve fit and finish (call it mediocre+), the big issue has always been the handle which is still pretty boxy and unrefined.  A lot of people find it uncomfortable for that reason alone, and others think of it as overlarge.  Personally, I have a lot of tolerance for just about any handle, but would never buy a DP because it's "cladded." Another issue entirely, one which probably doesn't apply to you at all, and I bring up only to let you know my bias. 

    The DP is neither particularly thick nor particularly thin.  IIRC Tojiro ships its knives sharps, but can't really remember what the factory edge is like.  The factory geometry is OK except around the heel where it's too thick but can be thinned.  The old Swedish steel knives were exceptionally durable with great edge holding, I expect the newer VG-10s give up a little in those areas, but sharpen more easily and even sharper.  In any case, we're talking about nuance and not leaps and bounds.   

    It's got a decent, but not great French profile.  Not good enough to be really exciting, but not bad enough to get in the way either.

    Others:

    FWIW, I like both the Fujiwara FKM and Misono Moly as entry level knives over the Tojiro mostly for profile, F&F and handle.

    The next full step up in price and quality includes knives like the MAC Pro, Masamoto VG, Hiromoto AS and G3, Sakai Takayuki Grand Cheff, etc.  These tend to be very good all-around chef's knives, but are sufficiently idosyncratic that finding the best matches for you involves finding out what characteristics you value most.  For what it's worth, I most often recommend MAC Pro and Masamoto VG.

    There are a few OEM knives which blur the price/performance line.  I'm especially thinking about JCK's lines of Kagayakis.  The VG-10 is a very good knife, but with a smallish handle and some sharpening issues which may or may not bother you.  The "CarboNext" (what a terrible name!) is the current hot buzz, but it's only been available for a few weeks -- not long enough for anyone to develop an informed opinion.  There's a lot of speculation that it's a Kikuichi (formerly Ichimonji) TKC under an OEM name.

    Speaking of which, the Kikuichi TKC is another outstanding knife and made with a better alloy than either the MAC or Masamoto. 

    I'm assuming you don't want to get into Japanese handled knives.

    BDL
     
  6. lennyd

    lennyd

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    I have read here more than once that the J-knives and oil stones are not a good match up, but I have to be totally honest that I have zero experience with any Japanese waterstones, and have more questions than knowledge on them as well.

    So far the only ones I have even attempted to price are the super stones and a couple of the kings, but have nothing to compare the information with other than budget.

    I would like to try and stay under $100 for stones (consider that almost buys a pallet of landscape stone lol) but really have not been able to even determine if that is plenty or not nearly enough to even get started.

    I guess it would be an advantage if my sharpening apparatus could evolve with my collection over time etc.
     
  7. lennyd

    lennyd

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    BDL

    Thanks for your input, and sorry for making you repeat yourself yet once again on some of this. I will try to keep my answers/questions in your same order.

    Since $20 is well within budget, and my norton is well worn from years with various hunting and pocket knives I agree with your suggestion. It would allow me to leave the current one for the smaller knives where it's length is not an issue while having a full length and flat new one for the German kitchen knives. Where would the better places to source one be?

    Though your later comments (and previous in other threads) leads me to believe I may end up replacing many of the Germans with Japanese knives etc until that happens will I be able to use any of the recommended water stones even for less aggressive polishing or finishing, or would it be better to stick with the current mish mosh system I have been using? How about the rougher side of the Norton for reshaping or repairing the entry level J-knives (though somehow that sounds just plain scary or wrong lol).

    Considering your thoughts on being able to get even the entry level Tojiro considerably sharper then is even possible on the Germans with just a couple different waterstones, and the fact this is basically what I am after combined with the ability to actually hold that sharpness for a reasonable amount of time this may be a good path for me no matter if they are at "student level" etc What I mean is that I know more than a few professionals who not only learned with lesser knives than the Germans I am now using, but also those much more skilled than myself are using the same or lessor knives every day.

    It seems I am allowing myself to somehow get confused between why I was looking at changing or getting a new knife or knives in the first place, and all the great products, reviews, information, and talk about performance.

    I mean some of the knives discussed in other threads and forums are seriously impressive, and I wonder if I am just getting "caught up" in the escalation of quality or performance which I really do not think is a good thing considering use and skills etc, BUT then again I have always and still am drawn to quality over price.

    Since I have no problem with OEM or house brands I will be looking into your other suggestions soon as well, but there is a point in price where the little extra is not worth worrying about and I normally end up either finding the value in the lower end or making the jump to quality so I would expect the same with this purchase.

    I intend to be checking into the Fujiwara FKM as well.

    I know you recommend the Mac Pro a lot (yes I have taken the time to read through many other threads before posting lol) but for some reason it just looks flimsy or "odd", and at a typical $170  it is just too short a jump up to some of the more highly recommended knives. Just my totally unprofessional first hand impression so take it for what it is worth etc.

    Also what do you think about the Hattori? Both the HD and the JCK exclusive members design? There is just something about the members design that screams both quality and performance when I look at them. Not as pretty as the clad ones, but just seem very good on fit and look lightening fast.

    You nailed it on the handles. Not that I have a problem with the Japanese handles, and have actually thought they felt good the few times I have held or used one etc, but more that I do not want to confuse things anymore than I have  already :)
     
  8. phaedrus

    phaedrus

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    You can certainly try your current oil stones- if you find them satisfactory, you've saved a few bucks!  I don't mean to be dogmatic, I'm just a big fan of water stones.  But anything that can scratch an edge can sharpen it.

    I would say that you're more likely to get a sharp knife from Tojiro than from any other manufacturer.  I would rate their OOTB sharpness as superior even to Shun.  In fact, I got a Tojiro nakiri that I didn't even need to sharpen before taking it to work!  Apparently they've put a lot of work into bumping up the level of the factory edge.  Fit and finish of the recent ones also seems improved over my oldest ones.  The FKM is a bit cheaper but probably not worth it.  The Tojiro steel can take a more acute edge than the Fujiwara's, with the exception of the FKH (high carbon)- that particular line is a screaming bargain if you can deal with carbon.

    The Hattori HDs are really nice.  I still carry one in my work case.  The older ones seemed to chip pretty easily; I repaired two for a coworker that looked like they fell down a garbage disposal.  The newer ones are reputed to be much better.  Fit and finish is uniformly superb on the HD, and they're very attractive knives.  The FH is a cut above, though.  In many respects the FH is one of my very favorite knives.  Fit and finish on mine was immaculate, and I've never held a more comfortable handle.  Everything about the knife is near-perfect.  Unfortunately, though, I'm kind of a fetishist where knives are concerned.  Ultimately I decided I didn't really want to keep a $250 knife that's made of VG-10.  While it's a good "starter" steel it can't compete with the better powdered- and tool-steels for edge retention and the ability to hold acute angles.  The FH was supposed to be released in a Cowry-X version but three years later it hasn't happened.  In the end I sold it and moved on to some knives that hold an edge a bit longer.  That said, I will probably break down and buy another one someday!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/blushing.gif

    The CarboNext really does appear to be a rebranded Ichimonji/Kikuichi.  It feels the same on the stones and takes a killer edge.  It's too early to tell but I really think they're the same knife.  I heard it from a source I consider reliable; that coupled with my experience with the stock Ichimonji and my new CarboNext have me convinced that if they're not the exact same knife they're first cousins.  Again, time will tell but after using it for the day at work I'm pleased with the way the CN cuts (although to be fair the OOTB edge was flat-effing terrible!).

    I will point out that Mark recently dropped the price of the Kikuichi-branded TKCs.  Those really are guarenteed to be the same as the Ichimonji version.  I'd say the new price makes them even more irresistable.  In fact I'd have purchased that over the CN if CKtG only carried the suji in a 300mm.

    BTW, while I don't share BDL's dislike of Warikomi and San-Mai blades, the TKCs & CarboNexts are mono-steel knives.  Some will find that very attractive.  To me it's not a big deal either way.  FWIW I would say the Ichimonji TKC is my favorite gyuto.  YMMV.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2010
  9. lennyd

    lennyd

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    Feels weird to be quoting myself but I think I forgot to actually answer this previously in any depth.

    "It seems I am allowing myself to somehow get confused between why I was looking at changing or getting a new knife or knives in the first place, and all the great products, reviews, information, and talk about performance."

    I wanted to expand on this as I believe it should help with everyone's suggestions.

    What I have found since having the extra time to spend preparing decent meals again after being short on time for many years is I have not been using the chefs knife (mundial elegance 8") that much anymore and find I have been automatically grabbing the Santoku without really even realizing it. After noticing this I started thinking about it and I just enjoy it more and find it more comfortable and efficient. I lend this to the lighter weight, sharper edge, and my now realized preference to slice and chop as opposed rock and pump etc.

    This was what prompted me to start investigating what else was out there (and that time factor again, damn I am dangerous with too much of it lmao) and ran into all this information on so many really nice looking options that so many feel will out perform pretty much my entire collection. It is a bit overwhelming, and since it has been less than a week it is a lot to absorb.

    Since I have reshaped, back beveled,  and sharpened my current kitchen knives (and even re done some asymmetrical that could not take a reasonable acute edge of any kind), and found that the only ones that will take any kind of an acute edge that I am in any way happy with are the thinner Henckels (namely the Santoku and the 6" util. and almost the slicer) and this combined with all the new information has brought me to this point.

    Maybe I am additionally a bit mixed up from most of my sharpening experience being with other different items that have thicker shorter blades and my experience finding that the thinner kitchen knives I have (thinner than the hunting and pocket, not just the three I mention earlier) wont really take much more of an angle etc. I had taken some of these to nearly 15* to only have to go back and bring them back to 22-25* so that the edges were not completely folding over constantly.

    The three I find I like most are the ones with thinner blades, are also the hardest blades, and are at the most acute angles.

    And again this is with my unusual sharpening equipment.

    Also as far as sharpening and related equipment goes I think I have to be careful because this create some kind of OCD behavior (well maybe not compared to some I have read on the net, but everyone around my home has thought this more than once I am sure) and if the water stones produce the results so many claim I do not think I will have a problem with them as much as with making decisions between them and possibly ending up with too many over time.

    From what you and BDL are saying about the possible edge that can be had with the low cost Tojiro on the right stones, the superior potential of so many other knives I have to be cautious of the addiction factor as well. As an example a friend brought his Wustofs back to the shop who just sharpened them after borrowing an inexpensive pocket knife that he found after testing was sharper than his $500 "set" that he just paid way to much to have sharpened. I dont think that is as much about anything I did as much as what people will accept as "sharp" and I can not wait until I find what can be done with the wetstones!

    Hope that helps to help me out and thanks again for all your replies
     
  10. lennyd

    lennyd

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    "Others:

    FWIW, I like both the Fujiwara FKM and Misono Moly as entry level knives over the Tojiro mostly for profile, F&F and handle."

    BDL the Fujiwara FKM looks to be an even better value than the Tojiro

    Even though I do not have a handle fetish I can see it is more streamlined or matched to the blade, and from the picture looks that it will have a better feel etc.

    Can you expand on the F&F  and profile difference?

    Also having to do this all through pictures and spec is so much different than putting one in your hand.

    "BTW, while I don't share BDL's dislike of Warikomi and San-Mai blades, the TKCs & CarboNexts are mono-steel knives.  Some will find that very attractive.  To me it's not a big deal either way.  FWIW I would say the Ichimonji TKC is my favorite gyuto.  YMMV."

    Phaedrus

    Since I have not used any San-Mai types that I can remember I am without opinion other than the look of some of them grow on you and are attractive.

    The Kikuichi TKC and the others that you believe are the same are also nice and seem to come with great reviews, but were back to the $170 range again :(

    I am starting to lean towards purchasing one of the entry level knives, building up a reasonable kit of stones and experience with it all, and then possibly spending more to update in the future.

    Or maybe not and just buck up the additional $100 and get it right the first time lol.

    And I thought posting would make this a little easier lol.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2010
  11. phaedrus

    phaedrus

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    Not a bad idea at all.  The Tojiros are great values and instead of "outgrowing" them, as your sharpening skills increase you will grow into them!  The knife has a lot of capability waiting to be unlocked with a little thinning and a good shapening.  I still carry three of 'em in my work case and don't foresee getting rid of them in the near future.  The Tojiri is san-mai/clad, if that matters (it likely won't).  Most of the other "value" J-knives have similar potential, although the FKM won't have quite the "legs" as the Tojo.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2010
  12. lennyd

    lennyd

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    Thanks again for the good info.

    I think I have narrowed it down to either the Fujiwara FKM or Tojiro DP mostly based on the combination of value, ability to get and hold an edge, and my own skills and needs. Much as I can see the benefits of the higher cost better overall alternatives I am finding the cost to benefit ratio "for me" not to be as high as it would be for someone who used them more often, or earned their living with them etc.

    I am still questioning this decision, but it looks like the right direction.

    Now I have to admit this will need some clarification "wont have quite the legs of the Tojo".

    What is more important to an entry level user, Legs, handles, or fit, finish and profile?
     
  13. lennyd

    lennyd

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    I know there was some input on wetstones, but I am finding my search for info on them very confusing.

    I think my issue right now is that I have no idea how much polish I would want to be putting on either of the two knives, and just how the numbering system compares to the #2500 grit I am now using. I cant think it is in any way the same between the stones and paper since I see so many talk about 8000, 10000, and even 12000 rating on the wetstones.

    Any suggestions on what I should be looking at considering my previous information?
     
  14. phaedrus

    phaedrus

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    I mean you would probably use the Tojiro longer.  You will outgrow the softer knife but as your sharpening ability improves the Tojiro will get better and better.  If you get a really low end entry level knife you probably won't use it for long before you want to upgrade.  Even as you get better ones you'll find the Tojiro to a good knife.
     
  15. lennyd

    lennyd

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    It is now seeming like my original entry into Japanese Knives may be the right choice, and hope I can just get myself to order the Tojo before I change my mind again.

    I was seeing some decent prices on combo stones, and some single ones, and am thinking that either of these knives should be ok with a 1000/6000 set up. Does that sound accurate?

    Also after looking for the Norton stone to replace my current broken one for my Germans I realized that it is not the one that BDL thought it was, or at least the replacement is not looking anything like it. I am trying to figure what I may actually have before spending for a lesser one etc.

    It seems like the finer side is where the difference is, and it is more of a light gray or white versus the dark gray or brownish color of the other one.
     
  16. phaedrus

    phaedrus

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    You can probably get a full sized 1k & 6k for the same or even less than the price of the combo stone, and they'll last longer, too.  I'd say a 1k & a 6K would be a good combo.  So would a 1k/5k set.  I mention this because at ChefKnivesToGo.com you could get the 1k Arashiyama and the 5k Suehiro Rika for $75 shipped.  That's a better deal than any double sided combo stone I've ever seen.  I don't  have either stone but I've queried friends that have used them extensively to good effect.  The former is considered a great budget stone and the latter is very popular even among experienced sharpeners.  The same vendor also has a combo deal on the 1k & 4k Shapton GlassStones when purchased together.  It's $99, also with free shipping.  I've used the GlassStones and really like them, although for the money you may like something different.

    I'd be shocked if you didn't like the Tojiro.  The handles are tad large and blocky but the blade is terrific.  It would make a fine first knife and one you wouldn't soon outgrow.
     
  17. lennyd

    lennyd

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    Checked those stones out, and they look to make sense for me too. I can understand the obvious benefit for spending $30 more for two stones over the combo stone.

    So looks like I will go with that combo, or buck up a little for the 6k.

    I just found out that this may become an X-mas gift so may have a little extra dough for a petty or? Now this may allow a chance to mix up the two between the two brands being discussed in this thread and then later compare them even being different knives.

    One last question since Cutlery and more just put the Tojo's on sale (240mm is now $20 less than CKTG) I may move my order to their direction, BUT I do see a difference in the pictures (CM shows a big ole label on the left side) and they list their Tojo's as being for the US market only and can not ship outside etc. Are these different than the ones offered by others? Do they all have the large logo on the left side of the blade?

    Not sure if this is just fate messing with me, but somehow it seems every time I make up my mind something throws me in a different direction.

    I wouldn't be surprised if BDL came back into the thread to debate our choice, actually have to admit I was expecting more rebuttal in support for his recommendation of the Fujiwara over the Tojiro from reading other previous posts etc. Oh Well :)
     
  18. lennyd

    lennyd

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    I had replied earlier today, but the sys said it was sent for review. How long does this normally take?

    I checked out your recomendations on the stones, and looks fine to me and should fit into budget.

    If my prev reply is not up soon I will try to re post etc.
     
  19. lennyd

    lennyd

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    Well since the system allowed the above post to go through, and I still do not see the previous one that was being reviewed I will hit the basics of it.

    Due to finding that I may end up receiving the Gyuto as an xmas present this may end up allowing me to fit the stones and also a petty into the budget.

    That said I am thinking to go with the Tojiro on the Gyuto, and then try out the Fuliwara FKM for the Petty so that I can spend some time with both of these excellent looking entry level brands, and be able to sort of compare (I know due to the difference of the sizes etc it will not be a perfect comparison)

    I also received an email that directed me to a sale on the Tojiro at Cutlery and More that put the price of the 240mm Gyuto $20 below Chef Knives to Go. Only concern I have is that C & M shows a really large (almost unsightly) logo on the left side of the blade, and also has a disclaimer that these are not avail to ship outside the US. The logo is not a concern really, but none of the other show it, and that combined with the shipping restriction are making me concerned if they are offering the same knife as the others, or something they had made just for them that is somehow of lesser quality. Does anyone know about this?

    And since you all have helped me to get to the point of finally making a decision the only thing I am finding puzzling from reading many of the posts here is that BDL never rebutted your suggestion of the Tojiro over the Fujwara he preferred. Not sure if he lost track of interest in the thread, but it would have been interesting and also beneficial to have seen the pro's and con's of the two debated more in depth,
     
  20. phaedrus

    phaedrus

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    I'm not positive about that; I noticed it, too.  Presumably they're the same knife underneath it all but I'm none too fond of the gaudy markings on the C&M version.  You could always try asking them.  FIWI though I will say they're a great vendor.  They ship fast and have great customer service.  I haven't purchased from them in a while due to having mostly "outgrown" their knives and not needing many gadgets.