The Pie's The Limit

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Having just opened a bakery a few months ago I have been using AP flour for my pies.... no one in twenty miles is even making their own pies so mine are wonderful I have a beautiful flaky crust and people are raving over my pies...... panini I value your input and as I have both cake and bread flour in my kitchen I am going to give it a try..... on a more personal note you do seem to be very angry lately or maybe its just the way you want to come across If you need to get something off your chest I am a great listener feel free to email me or I will just keep my big fat nose out of your business either way thanks for the idea

HISSSSSSSS
 
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No, there is nothing here to make me angry. I'm just old and crotchity. I ususally don't post on something I don't understand. I know for a fact that some of our flours down here are blended. Our local hard wheats here are very soft as mostly in the south. Ask all the snowbirds in Florida and they will all tell you"why can"t they make bread like NY" I'm not one for all the technical stuff you can fill your head with. I can feel, touch, and smell a flour to understand what it will do in a formula.
I'm all for furthering ones education on any subject, but to emerse yourself in print can be damaging. Most of the threads here are about something somebody read and another person read something to the contrary.
Most formulas for a certain item have a very common denominator. Some people have a feel for just what they can do to alter something, and some have to stick right to the exact formula. The later will usually not be able to tell you what went wrong with something or rework mistakes( a key to being a Chef)
Like I always say I'm no expert. but to call me a home baker is off too.:D
 
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I thought you were heading for the hills, and that would have been too bad, because all the posts I've read indicate that you certainly know your way around the bakeshop.
It seems like there were two things going on here, your assertion that 80% of bakeries make their own blended pastry flour, and that could be true, and your assertion that the stuff one buys in bags is blended bread and cake flour, and I don't think that's the case.
I don't know who called you a home baker, but they obviously haven't read a lot of your posts.
Just to set the record straight..I am an effete intellectual eastern liberal, 5 on the Enneagram, ISTJ Meyers Briggs.,.you figure it out...and I only buy a bag of Golden Shield once a season, and I only put it in cookies. I think if you have a deft touch, you can get away with all-purpose for a lot of things.
 
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See. there you go again. things in print, tests! Did you need those tests to figure the results?Guess how high I score on a personality test? pretty s--tty.Ask my co-workers who they would like to be in a fox hole or stranded on an island with?
John is probably right about the classification. But most places I've worked , there is usually a compaction problem in bakery storage, therefor to store pastry flour, something else has to go. Again, I'm in the south and I think this has a lot to do with it, our APF is green or crap and our hards are soft. The story of my life.
To set the record straight, I get frustrated with this site and quit it once or twice a month. Mostly because my fingers have great problems translating my thoughts. and , people quote from books to much:D
what the he--do I know;) :mad: If your using one bag a year I think the amount of added critters would change the properties. more protien?:eek:
 
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Well, I've found that in order for me to be comfortable in my own skin in what I call my life, I had to have in-depth knowledge of what makes me tick. Finding out that I am an Observer, a collector of information, that emotionally I live in a cave, has helped me figure out who I am and where I'm going. It finally gave me an answer to all those flying dreams where I hover over everything and watch, why I live in a house crammed full of books, why I have a quick answer for everything. But I hope I also have enough humility to admit it when I don't know the answer to a question. As Mark Twain put it, "I'm gratified to be able to answer promptly. I don't know." Admitting what I don't know helps me learn.
 
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Well I find out every day I don't know something. I'm not quick to answer but to lash out. I've made it a point never to let someone rent space in my head. I speak my peace and usually move on. I usually can't remember what I had for b'fast. I really wish I had the time to to study myself.
bighat, don't get me wrong, I have great respect for those people who dive into print to better themselves. I'm probably just a little jealous. I will be the first to admit I'm wrong, really! it happened about 11 yrs. ago.
I admit I'm wrong about the flour thing but if you run out of pastry flour try my way.
 
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Isa, not that I'm aware of. Our apf here is somewhat soft and I have mixed it with cake for things like frangipane. apf is pretty inconsistant here.
 
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sorry Isa, my computer hiccuped.Like I said our apf is not very good, most of our flours are spring harvest. Depending in which part of the country you are in will make a difference( I think). Up north most wheats are winter, from red wheat. The high glutens are much better and their bread flours are different from ours. Our bread flour runs 9-10% where as up north they are probably 11-12%. Our APF are 8-9% and theirs are probably 9-11%.
Hard winter wheats are supposed to be the best, but you have to work with what you have.If your recipe calls for cake flour than I would try to find it.
 
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Hope you don't mind my adding my two cents also. I understand the basics of gluten but I sort of feel AT TIMES it's like splitting hairs (except when your making bread, then it's very important).

I'm sure you'll all blast me (and the line is blurred because we can't compare apples to apples here, since gluten does varie in regions), but....I mix ap with cake flour to make my pastry flour. BUT actually I don't really think it's critical to have pastry flour on hand, I never have for space reasons. PLUS I really don't believe when making pastries you have to get as intense into your gluten as you do with breads (so long as you keep away from high gluten). I really believe a light hand, good method and good quality ingredients has a far bigger impact on taste then the differences between the lower gluten flours.


The recent book called The Bakers Dozen (I think) confirms my thoughts about flours in cake. They studied cake flour vs ap flour in cakes and in general agreed that they prefered the flavor from the ap cake more often (they said they were suprised by this themselfs). This book also has a section on making pie crusts and I believe they also address the flours and gulten choices for that. I haven't looked into that in depth but I really respect the people who compiled this book and how they approached this as scienticly as possible.

P.S. I love you Panini....I know you always have the very best intents. I get frustrated too sometimes, and I really stick my foot in my mouth. This writing thing is hard, people take things literally too much. I think you need to read between the lines and see the persons intent over long periods of time. You've always gone out of you way to be helpful and teach, I appreciate it ALOT!
 
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Couldn't we all just agree that some of us are right-brainers and others are left-brainers, and that makes the world more interesting?! Some of us are thinkers, and love the support they get from books, others are do-ers, and learn from doing, and observation, and way things feel.

Peace and love, y'all!
 
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Marmalady,
I think that is exactly what makes the world go round. I'm in no way suggesting that one way is better than the other. Interesting conversation come with boths sides at the table, not telling one side they are wrong. Disagreement is vital for learning. Trust me, there is nothing here that would ever make me mad, a little frustrating maybe, but that is healthy.
This venue is great for me because I have found that I can get a little cross with people, something I have great problems in real life. Besides, when all is said and done, I'm right!:D

I'm enjoying a week of with my wife. So without the daily grind I would be on guard here! I may have serious opinions about everything. Except Thurs, I will fly off to partake in a little poker at the casinos.;)
 
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Hey panini, stop threatening to leave us...you know you never will!!:D

Wendy, I am in agreement with you here too. There are very few people that would be able to detect a difference between ap and pastry in most baked goods. If I really need pastry flour, I mix ap and cake. No biggie. Quality has never suffered as a result of it.

Isa, I have heard some people say that if they need cake flour in a pinch, they mix ap flour with corn starch. Don't believe them! That's a case of what panini was saying. Some people read too much, without actually doing.
 
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:lol: :lol:

Panini could you suggest me some books to learn about the different types of flour in the States, please?? :D :D

Seriously, I will have big problem when I get there, I am taking my flour every other month from a mill (YES!!! YOU READ WELL) outside Athens...
Things are so complicated there...
 
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You can always check out, but you can never leave.
I'm sorry I don't have to many reference books for flours here in the US. I'm pretty sure Kyle would be the one for that.
There must be some sort of flour site out there. RBA might have something. I'm sure the FDA will have something.
Get ready for a change though. A lot of our flours ard bleached, enriched, washed, dried, ironed and folded.
I'm old school, Amendola, people like that. I'm sure there is somebody writing about flours.
 
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Yes, most of our flours are enriched. But you can avoid most of that other nasty stuff. To get an idea of what is available here take a look at King Arthur Flour's web site.. Or you can visit Bob's Red Mill. These two companies are both retail and mailorder. They offer a wide variety of unbleached, unbromated, organic flours and whole grains.
 
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Kyle,
Thanks for that KA site. I use the K A Special and thought it was the only thing available to me here. I put a call into my salesperson to see about getting some of the other flours to try.
It is considerably higher in price than the local stuff. Do you think thats because I'm in Texas or is it high in general?
 
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I think KA stuff is generally a little more expensive. They have never done me wrong and I'd rather pay up a little and know what I'm getting.
 
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Yes, I agree. I really like the idea that you can track the flours.
You know we can get some patent flours from up north, but without some way for the consumer to track the age and the shipping conditions they are just as unreliable as our local stuff. I'm switching to the cake flour immediately if I can get it. If the % is exact as they say, it will certainly beat what I'm using now.
 

isa

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Thanks for the flour advice Panini.

Momo,

I’ve heard of replacing part of the flour with starch. In Perfect Pastry, Malgieri uses starch in some of his cakes. In The Art Of The Cake, the authors advice replacing some of the flour by potato starch,


Cake made with American all purpose flour are sometimes too coarse and not tender enough because the flour contains too much gluten-forming proteins. We have developed a simple rule of thumb to remedy the problem using potato starch: For one ounce (25g) all purpose flour substitute 1/3 ounce (10g) potato starch plus 1 large egg yolk. The potato starch replaces the starch in the flour and the protein in the egg yolk are a non gluten forming replacement for the proteins in the flour. The result is invariably a cake with a finer crumbs and a moister and more tender texture…. We have used this substitution with great success in the classic pound cake and in génoise
 
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