The new "Normal" for us all....

[sgsvirgil]

At present local government is requiring me to wear gloves and a mask while at work (in the grocery store) I find myself changing my gloves at least 15 times during my shift. We require customers to wear them while shopping and only allow 3 people in to the store at a time.
This virus is sickening and killing people. I don't understand why some people don't seem to be alarmed or concerned about this.

People are alarmed and concerned about the number of deaths associated with this virus. However, the problem flows from the fact that the death rate of this virus was exaggerated and consequently, so was the reaction of just about every government in the Western Hemisphere.

Let me put this into context.

There are 330 million people in the US. Of that population, 1.45 million people are reportedly infected with the virus. However, that data is changing by leaps and bounds on a daily basis as testing becomes more and more prevalent. Because of the increasingly widespread testing, no less than 26 studies have been performed in the US by local and state governments in conjunction with multiple universities and medical institutions that prove millions more people were actually infected with the virus than the 1.45 that have been confirmed. That means the death rate is literally a fraction of what it was said to be. Estimates place that death rate at around one half of one percent; which is about on par with some strains of influenza.

In 2017-18, the flu virus, which is a close kin to Covid 19, infected more than 34 million people and resulted between 41,000 and 79,000 deaths. It generated more than 17 million doctor visits and just under 1 million hospitalizations. By Covid standards, that's a pandemic and a basis for lock downs and social distancing. But, no such orders have ever been issued.

Right now, the Covid 19 death count in the US about 84,000. The problem is that at least 60% of those who are counted as Covid related deaths were never tested. Now that testing has become more widespread, we are not only learning that far more were infected than previously thought at around 14% of the population, we are also finding that nearly half of all suspected Covid cases that are tested come back negative. So, if we apply that simple math to the death count for the sake of argument, that cuts the number in half. Instead of 84,000, the number becomes 42,000, probably less. 14% of the US population is around 46 million. Even if the death count remains at 84,000, that a death rate than is a fraction of 1%.

Next, we have to factor in the number of Covid related deaths that really had nothing to do with Covid. We will never know that true figure. Just a short while ago, Pennsylvania was reported to have removed quite a few deaths that were reported as Covid related. In Philly, for example, what triggered the investigation was a car accident victim that died from massive head trauma (he was literally decapitated) and was counted as a Covid related death. Officials discovered that people who died of strokes, heart attacks or who were listed as terminal for any one of a variety of reasons were being counted among the Covid related deaths for no other reason than they showed some of the symptoms of Covid. Never mind the fact that conditions such as pneumonia are often a consequence of many serious or otherwise terminal conditions, especially cancer, COPD, emphysema, diabetes and so on. Even people who died of strokes and heart attacks were reportedly counted among the Covid related deaths. This is what they found in just one city in one state. What would be the results if every city, especially New York City, were to undergo the same audit?

What strikes me as particularly strange is the fact that every year between October and May, every country in the Western Hemisphere deals with an influenza outbreak. Some worse than others. In the US, we call it "flu season." Tens of thousands die every year from flu and complications directly related to it (mostly the same high risk demographics as Covid). Tens of millions are infected. Millions are hospitalized and yet, we have never experienced such a reaction as we have in the last 2 to 3 months in relation to Covid.

There comes a time when sober, intelligent, rational people must start asking questions that are not "popular" starting with the question "why?" Why is Covid being treated so differently when in effect, its really no worse than a nasty flu season? Why are people being told to wear masks that do not provide any protection against the virus whatsoever? Why are people being told to stay in their homes where it has been proven that such close contact actually facilitates the spread of the virus rather than prevents it?

We are all properly trained professionals when it comes to the practice of safe food handling, especially when it comes to sanitation and bacteria control. What is happening and what we are being told and how to deal with it simply doesn't pass the smell test for a variety of reasons yet, few people are raising their hands and asking the right questions.

My first question is "Cui Bono?"

Stay well, everyone.

 

[Seoul Food]

We require customers to wear them while shopping and only allow 3 people in to the store at a time.

Wow I haven't heard about any customer limits so extreme. How big is the place you work and your active cases/per population? I'm in NY and they don't have restrictions like that at the grocery stores.

 

[Seoul Food]

There comes a time when sober, intelligent, rational people must start asking questions that are not "popular" starting with the question "why?" Why is Covid being treated so differently when in effect, its really no worse than a nasty flu season? Why are people being told to wear masks that do not provide any protection against the virus whatsoever? Why are people being told to stay in their homes where it has been proven that such close contact actually facilitates the spread of the virus rather than prevents it?

At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theory nut, I believe it comes down to politics, power and money. The people at the top want to see what they can get away with with the people at the bottom and fear is a powerful motivator. Not to mention the fact that this will make certain people a whole lot of money in the end. Just like everything else related to government and politics in the end the it'll be the average joe that is left holding the check and wondering how they got screwed so badly.

 

[chefross]

Wow I haven't heard about any customer limits so extreme. How big is the place you work and your active cases/per population? I'm in NY and they don't have restrictions like that at the grocery stores.

We are a small family owned grocery store on an island with population of about 1000. It's the tourists that are causing us to take such extreme measures, to protect us workers. People are supposed to take everything they need with them before they come here. and once here, are supposed to quarantine themselves for 14 days and then proceed with the social distancing regulations.

sgsvirgil, I couldn't agree with you more but still have to do what I'm told......

 

[dectra]

People are alarmed and concerned about the number of deaths associated with this virus. However, the problem flows from the fact that the death rate of this virus was exaggerated and consequently, so was the reaction of just about every government in the Western Hemisphere.

Let me put this into context.

There are 330 million people in the US. Of that population, 1.45 million people are reportedly infected with the virus. However, that data is changing by leaps and bounds on a daily basis as testing becomes more and more prevalent. Because of the increasingly widespread testing, no less than 26 studies have been performed in the US by local and state governments in conjunction with multiple universities and medical institutions that prove millions more people were actually infected with the virus than the 1.45 that have been confirmed. That means the death rate is literally a fraction of what it was said to be. Estimates place that death rate at around one half of one percent; which is about on par with some strains of influenza.

In 2017-18, the flu virus, which is a close kin to Covid 19, infected more than 34 million people and resulted between 41,000 and 79,000 deaths. It generated more than 17 million doctor visits and just under 1 million hospitalizations. By Covid standards, that's a pandemic and a basis for lock downs and social distancing. But, no such orders have ever been issued.

Right now, the Covid 19 death count in the US about 84,000. The problem is that at least 60% of those who are counted as Covid related deaths were never tested. Now that testing has become more widespread, we are not only learning that far more were infected than previously thought at around 14% of the population, we are also finding that nearly half of all suspected Covid cases that are tested come back negative. So, if we apply that simple math to the death count for the sake of argument, that cuts the number in half. Instead of 84,000, the number becomes 42,000, probably less. 14% of the US population is around 46 million. Even if the death count remains at 84,000, that a death rate than is a fraction of 1%.

Next, we have to factor in the number of Covid related deaths that really had nothing to do with Covid. We will never know that true figure. Just a short while ago, Pennsylvania was reported to have removed quite a few deaths that were reported as Covid related. In Philly, for example, what triggered the investigation was a car accident victim that died from massive head trauma (he was literally decapitated) and was counted as a Covid related death. Officials discovered that people who died of strokes, heart attacks or who were listed as terminal for any one of a variety of reasons were being counted among the Covid related deaths for no other reason than they showed some of the symptoms of Covid. Never mind the fact that conditions such as pneumonia are often a consequence of many serious or otherwise terminal conditions, especially cancer, COPD, emphysema, diabetes and so on. Even people who died of strokes and heart attacks were reportedly counted among the Covid related deaths. This is what they found in just one city in one state. What would be the results if every city, especially New York City, were to undergo the same audit?

What strikes me as particularly strange is the fact that every year between October and May, every country in the Western Hemisphere deals with an influenza outbreak. Some worse than others. In the US, we call it "flu season." Tens of thousands die every year from flu and complications directly related to it (mostly the same high risk demographics as Covid). Tens of millions are infected. Millions are hospitalized and yet, we have never experienced such a reaction as we have in the last 2 to 3 months in relation to Covid.

There comes a time when sober, intelligent, rational people must start asking questions that are not "popular" starting with the question "why?" Why is Covid being treated so differently when in effect, its really no worse than a nasty flu season? Why are people being told to wear masks that do not provide any protection against the virus whatsoever? Why are people being told to stay in their homes where it has been proven that such close contact actually facilitates the spread of the virus rather than prevents it?

We are all properly trained professionals when it comes to the practice of safe food handling, especially when it comes to sanitation and bacteria control. What is happening and what we are being told and how to deal with it simply doesn't pass the smell test for a variety of reasons yet, few people are raising their hands and asking the right questions.

My first question is "Cui Bono?"

Stay well, everyone.

Mortality for COVID-19 appears higher than for influenza, especially seasonal influenza. While the true mortality of COVID-19 will take some time to fully understand, the data we have so far indicate that the crude mortality ratio (the number of reported deaths divided by the reported cases) is between 3-4%, the infection mortality rate (the number of reported deaths divided by the number of infections) will be lower. For seasonal influenza, mortality is usually well below 0.1%.

Your supposition that "if we apply that simple math to the death count for the sake of argument, that cuts the number in half. Instead of 84,000, the number becomes 42,000..." is NOT backed up by facts; unless of course, your choice of where you get your info from is a right leaning "news" organization.

A simple google search proves this.
https://www.livescience.com/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html

Another factor that is widely overlooked is the contagious nature of Covid. Those 86,000 deaths (not 84,000) that you'd somehow 'cut in half' have occurred in the space of a little over 4 months. Show us where the "flu" has killed that many in four months....

I get it. We ALL hate this. But to misstate the facts, in an attempt to reopen too soon or to have folks congrigate before it is actually safe is just inviting more death. And last time I looked, dead people don't spend money in restaurants.....

 

[halb]

A simple google search proves this.

How does that prove anything?? You can do 10 Google searches and get as many opinions that masquerade as fact.

-Hal

 

[Seoul Food]

We are a small family owned grocery store on an island with population of about 1000. It's the tourists that are causing us to take such extreme measures, to protect us workers. People are supposed to take everything they need with them before they come here. and once here, are supposed to quarantine themselves for 14 days and then proceed with the social distancing regulations.

sgsvirgil, I couldn't agree with you more but still have to do what I'm told......

Kind of a double edged sword. I would guess that a large portion of your local economy is tourist based but at the same time it's making things harder too. How hard is it to get deliveries where you are?

 

[chefross]

Kind of a double edged sword. I would guess that a large portion of your local economy is tourist based but at the same time it's making things harder too. How hard is it to get deliveries where you are?

FedEx, UPS, USPS, and vendors are not the problem. Sysco even comes here. It's the availability of product. Big box stores, (Walmart, Meijers) get first dibs on product....leaving the scraps for the little guys.

 

[Seoul Food]

Mortality for COVID-19 appears higher than for influenza, especially seasonal influenza. While the true mortality of COVID-19 will take some time to fully understand, the data we have so far indicate that the crude mortality ratio (the number of reported deaths divided by the reported cases) is between 3-4%

I'm glad you acknowledge that the true mortality rate will take time to understand and know, but it really does no good to keep talking about the current percentage rate. The rate we have now means absolutely nothing and does nothing more than scare people who will compare it to the flu rate. Until we know how many people total were infected, than calculating mortality rate based on current number is meaningless.

Your supposition that "if we apply that simple math to the death count for the sake of argument, that cuts the number in half. Instead of 84,000, the number becomes 42,000..." is NOT backed up by facts; unless of course, your choice of where you get your info from is a right leaning "news" organization.

I believe he was using simple math for easy numbers. While obviously there is no way to currently prove how many cases there really are, there is plenty of evidence out there showing how cases are being miss labeled. Even the CDC and the White house gave very lenient guidelines on how COVID-19 deaths are to be written on death certificates. Where I am, when they release new death counts they always add that x% were confirmed cases and y% were probable cases. The issue a lot of people have is with the probable cases being counted towards the whole which messes with the numbers. Why would the CDC want so much possibility of bad data coming from something this "new"? Maybe because they realized unless they start showing how this is worse than the flu a lot of people are going to look pretty silly and a lot of people are going to be pretty mad. As far as a argument of a "right leaning "news" organization, that statement only really shows your own bias and unwillingness to think rationally. To automatically assume someone's political affiliations solely based on this opinions on one situation is short sighted and frankly offensive.

A simple google search proves this.
https://www.livescience.com/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html

Another factor that is widely overlooked is the contagious nature of Covid. Those 86,000 deaths (not 84,000) that you'd somehow 'cut in half' have occurred in the space of a little over 4 months. Show us where the "flu" has killed that many in four months....

The R value of invluenza is already a known factor due to all the data we have on it. The R factor on COVID-19 is only estimates based on current data. That is also not counting that we have a vaccine already for the flu. Add in the fact that a lot of influenza or pneumonia cases are now being labeled as COVID-19 and the numbers are skewed. You can't compare the two for total deaths to infections currently because the end data is unknown.

I get it. We ALL hate this. But to misstate the facts, in an attempt to reopen too soon or to have folks congrigate before it is actually safe is just inviting more death. And last time I looked, dead people don't spend money in restaurants.....

I don't know that you actually do get it. Not everyone who wants to reopen is somehow misstating the facts. The fact at the end of the day is neither you, nor I nor any of the "experts" know when it will be "safe" to reopen. What we do know is an indefinite continuation of this in some absurd attempt to never have another COVID-19 related death ever is not sustainable.

 

[Seoul Food]

FedEx, UPS, USPS, and vendors are not the problem. Sysco even comes here. It's the availability of product. Big box stores, (Walmart, Meijers) get first dibs on product....leaving the scraps for the little guys.

Yeah those places are making a killing right now. I know some states made it so they couldn't sell "non-essential" items but here its a free for all.

 

[dectra]

I'm glad you acknowledge that the true mortality rate will take time to understand and know, but it really does no good to keep talking about the current percentage rate. The rate we have now means absolutely nothing and does nothing more than scare people who will compare it to the flu rate. Until we know how many people total were infected, than calculating mortality rate based on current number is meaningless.



I believe he was using simple math for easy numbers. While obviously there is no way to currently prove how many cases there really are, there is plenty of evidence out there showing how cases are being miss labeled. Even the CDC and the White house gave very lenient guidelines on how COVID-19 deaths are to be written on death certificates. Where I am, when they release new death counts they always add that x% were confirmed cases and y% were probable cases. The issue a lot of people have is with the probable cases being counted towards the whole which messes with the numbers. Why would the CDC want so much possibility of bad data coming from something this "new"? Maybe because they realized unless they start showing how this is worse than the flu a lot of people are going to look pretty silly and a lot of people are going to be pretty mad. As far as a argument of a "right leaning "news" organization, that statement only really shows your own bias and unwillingness to think rationally. To automatically assume someone's political affiliations solely based on this opinions on one situation is short sighted and frankly offensive.



The R value of invluenza is already a known factor due to all the data we have on it. The R factor on COVID-19 is only estimates based on current data. That is also not counting that we have a vaccine already for the flu. Add in the fact that a lot of influenza or pneumonia cases are now being labeled as COVID-19 and the numbers are skewed. You can't compare the two for total deaths to infections currently because the end data is unknown.



I don't know that you actually do get it. Not everyone who wants to reopen is somehow misstating the facts. The fact at the end of the day is neither you, nor I nor any of the "experts" know when it will be "safe" to reopen. What we do know is an indefinite continuation of this in some absurd attempt to never have another COVID-19 related death ever is not sustainable.

The only thing I do *not* get is the fact you have no ability to respect the work of Actual Doctors and Scientists, and choose instead to traffic in hyperbole and debunked talking points.

You may be good at your day job as a Chef, but you are a failure at your attempts to deny Facts.

 

[Seoul Food]

The only thing I do *not* get is the fact you have no ability to respect the work of Actual Doctors and Scientists, and choose instead to traffic in hyperbole and debunked talking points.

You may be good at your day job as a Chef, but you are a failure at your attempts to deny Facts.

I'm not sure what "debunked talking points" you are referring to. Unless you are stating that in fact the mortality rate will not go down if total infected cases goes up? Of that the CDC guidelines on reporting COVID-19 deaths on their website was somehow hacked into their system by a "right leaning news organization"? Or the fact that even on the website you quoted, they specifically state the R factor of H1N1 and state the PROBABLE R factor of COVID-19? And are you denying that comparing seasonal fludeaths with a vaccine against COVID-19 without a vaccine somehow is an even comparison? Pray tell me which of these facts have been "debunked"?

 

[halb]

The fact at the end of the day is neither you, nor I nor any of the "experts" know when it will be "safe" to reopen. What we do know is an indefinite continuation of this in some absurd attempt to never have another COVID-19 related death ever is not sustainable.

Just calling this lifestyle the "New Normal" is repulsive to me. That implies that this is the way it's going to be from now on. That there is no end in sight.

 

[Seoul Food]

Just calling this lifestyle the "New Normal" is repulsive to me. That implies that this is the way it's going to be from now on. That there is no end in sight.

It's a social experiment. People are so afraid because of the constant negative coverage blasted at them that some are unwilling to see the broader picture here. It should be a huge red flag that governments are bypassing laws to keep us "safe". People should be very wary about giving the government precedent of shuttering businesses, schools, travel, and recreation. They are telling people where they can shop, when and what they can buy. Who they can see, what they can wear and imposing fines and even jail time for non compliance. Governments should be afraid of the people, not the other way around. Our governor keeps extending his emergency powers, which basically give him the ability to suspend all laws, mandates and ordinances. I can't believe more people don't have a problem with a single person being able to keep extending their own power by executive order. And any attempt at a logical discussion about this is met with disdain as if we all must blindly obey our masters because they know what's best for us.

 

[halb]

It's a social experiment. People are so afraid because of the constant negative coverage blasted at them that some are unwilling to see the broader picture here. It should be a huge red flag that governments are bypassing laws to keep us "safe". People should be very wary about giving the government precedent of shuttering businesses, schools, travel, and recreation. They are telling people where they can shop, when and what they can buy. Who they can see, what they can wear and imposing fines and even jail time for non compliance. Governments should be afraid of the people, not the other way around. Our governor keeps extending his emergency powers, which basically give him the ability to suspend all laws, mandates and ordinances. I can't believe more people don't have a problem with a single person being able to keep extending their own power by executive order. And any attempt at a logical discussion about this is met with disdain as if we all must blindly obey our masters because they know what's best for us.

Now provide more government handouts and we will be a Socialist country.

 

[chefross]

...but when the protesters are out there with their signs and no masks, it makes the "We The People" look silly and the media gobbles it up.

How could "the people" protest enough to make the government change their attitude? good luck.

 

[halb]

How could "the people" protest enough to make the government change their attitude? good luck.

Yeah, I guess it like the war protesters in the 60's. They felt that they had to do something and you know where that went.

But that doesn't help the fact that there are many people suffering and needing to go back to work. The Governor of this state keeps reopening dangling like a carrot on a stick. We have to meet some arbitrary numbers that they came up with before that can happen- which we are "very close to" as you can see by the death stats on the right of the screen.

On the news last night they interviewed the owners of a couple of hair salons. They talked about the changes they made to sanitize and keep customers apart when that happens. But the sad thing is, they say that if this goes on for another month or more they are going to have to go out of business. They still have rent and other bills to pay that have been backing up. And no, I heard no mention of a PPP loan but that's only good for 8 weeks. Could be what they are talking about.

 

[Seoul Food]

...but when the protesters are out there with their signs and no masks, it makes the "We The People" look silly and the media gobbles it up.

How could "the people" protest enough to make the government change their attitude? good luck.

I know what you mean but it's kinda sad that that is the state of things isn't it. We should never get the the point of not even trying to enact change because the probability is low. If you don't try you will always fail.

 

[Seoul Food]

Yeah, I guess it like the war protesters in the 60's. They felt that they had to do something and you know where that went.

But that doesn't help the fact that there are many people suffering and needing to go back to work. The Governor of this state keeps reopening dangling like a carrot on a stick. We have to meet some arbitrary numbers that they came up with before that can happen- which we are "very close to" as you can see by the death stats on the right of the screen.

On the news last night they interviewed the owners of a couple of hair salons. They talked about the changes they made to sanitize and keep customers apart when that happens. But the sad thing is, they say that if this goes on for another month or more they are going to have to go out of business. They still have rent and other bills to pay that have been backing up. And no, I heard no mention of a PPP loan but that's only good for 8 weeks. Could be what they are talking about.

I just don't understand how they can claim big box stores can "social distance" customers but a hair salon can't? Appointment only, limited number of customers inside at any given time, space between each chair, sanitation between customers, face mask for employees. How hard is that?

 

[halb]

That's the point. What makes a "Big Box" anymore essential than a hair salon? I would almost say that the decision was made by men.