The causes of tart shell shrinkage

Discussion in 'Pastries & Baking' started by kokopuffs, Sep 27, 2015.

  1. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    Up to today for making pate brisee/sucree I always used KA AP or a blend of KA AP and White Lily (WL) AP flours and my shells always shrank while baking - even after allowing the shells to rest in the freezer for a couple of hours once they were rolled out.  So today I followed Ruhlman's recipe to the letter using the 3:2:1 ratio but also using a mixture of AP and pastry flour.  What a difference the pastry flour makes.  Once baked I noticed that the shell conformed to the exact shape of the tart mold without any shrinkage and without any bulging in the well of the shell.

    So the idea is to use a blend of flours to include pastry flour; it'll result in a lower gluten content than only if AP is used.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  2. panini

    panini

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    If your using good flours you can usually mix APF with cake and get a nice pastry flour %

    just sayin. If you have those two on hand and no pastry flour.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  3. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    Is pastry flour higher in gluten than cake flour?
     
  4. panini

    panini

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    In most cases pastry flour has a bit more protein than cake flour. Both of these flours are milled from soft wheat. APFlour is usually a mixture of soft and hard wheat flour. Bread is typically from a hard wheat.
     
  5. luc_h

    luc_h

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    I know this is an unorthodox, non-Foodie culinary way, of doing the same but it wields similar results:

    Incorporating cornstarch to APF drastically reduces the protein content: for every cup of APF remove 1 or 2 TBSP of flour and add the same amount of cornstarch.

    Luc H.
     
  6. panini

    panini

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    What type of flour does this produce? cake or pastry? Keep in mind, non foodies will probably buy from grocery. If it's in the south, some of the APF can be predominately soft wheat./img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif
     
  7. luc_h

    luc_h

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    This would be for pastry flour.  I would recommend 3/4:1/4 cup of APF:cornstarch for cake flour.

    Up here in the Great White North, domestic commercial flour is mainly made from strong Canadian prairie hard wheat. So maybe my recipe would apply more to Canucks than southern available flour based on your comment.

    Luc H.
     
  8. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    I had always thought that bread made in Europe is made from soft wheat.  And can you please cite a reference that APF is a mixture of hard and soft wheats.  8)
     
  9. panini

    panini

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    so 28.5% cornstarch for cake and 13% cornstarch for pastry.
    That reference for APF is from the old book of me.:>)

    I'm asking questions basically to prove that anything pertaining to baking (except formulas) that is googled you will find many different answers. So it really doesn't matter if it's 2 tblsp or 22 tblsp. Flours fluctuate up and down in protein. That's why I find it better to try to achieve the right protein. 13% CS of a 10-11% APF protein is going to give you a tuff and somewhat chewy tart dough.

    So there isn't any exact answer to most of these questions. A good baker doesn't know his formulas inside out, he or she knows their ingredients inside out.
     
  10. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    Okay I baked a lemon tart using the pate sucree (Ruhlman's 3/2/1 + 2 TBS granulated sugar).  The snap of the crust was phenomenal and the butter flavor came thru really well.  However the shell seemed just a bit thinner than a crust made with 100% AP.  And, AND the bottom of the shell was dry as usual and the flakyness predominant.

    The next time I may experiment using a 60:40 mixture of AP + pastry flour for a bit more bulk.  And forgive me for not having mentioned this sooner but the (EDIT) low protein flour that was used was Swan's Down Cake Flour (EDIT) and not pastry flour and I'm not certain if (EDIT) the Swan's Down's performance in this recipe would differ noticeably from using a pastry flour.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
  11. fablesable

    fablesable

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    @kokopuffs  I just have to say I LOVE the way you get right in and experiment with ingredients. You are a breath of fresh air! I have always taught the best way to truly learn in the baking and culinary world is to question everything and experiment to your heart's content. You keep showing us all how much fun it is to learn about the ingredients we use and the sources they come from. My hat off to you /img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif
     
  12. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    @Fablesable THANK YOU and my previous post was edited for better clarity.

    And my tart shells are completely prebaked for 45 minutes at 385-425F prior to filling, and mostly on the bottom rack and partly on the top rack.  That's how I achieve the dry, flaky bottom and a good degree of golden brownness.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
  13. mazapan

    mazapan

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    Excuse me. Could someone explain about KA -AP flour? I have never heard about.
     
  14. brianshaw

    brianshaw

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  15. chicagoterry

    chicagoterry

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    @kokopuffs  There are references on a lot of baking websites that say AP flour is a mix of high and low gluten wheats and I've read the same in a number of bread baking books over the years, including Bernard Clayton's The Breads of France & Judith and Evan Jones' Book of Bread.

    KA, however, on their website, says their AP is from 100% hard red winter wheat.

    I just looked at the bag of supermarket AP flour on my counter and was a little surprised to see that it also contains barley flour!
     
  16. panini

    panini

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    Originally Posted by kokopuffs  [​IMG]
     
    I had always thought that bread made in Europe is made from soft wheat.  And can you please cite a reference that APF is a mixture of hard and soft wheats.  8)

    @ChicagoTerry

    Thanks for the references, I never did do a search.

    I can't recall the ingredients in KA APF. I don't think it's a hard winter wheat, maybe? I think it would be tough to get the same hard winter with the low protein unless they are diluting with the enriching. but I think you'll find that even their APF has malted barley flour. And the additives.

    I think they enrich, which is using the nutrients and such that were taken out during processing and adding them back in.. Other brands add nutrients and things other than what's found in the flour itself and cover that up by saying the are fortifying the flour.

    I'm really tired, this may be all wrong!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/crazy.gif
     
  17. chicagoterry

    chicagoterry

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    @panini  --From the King Arthur Website:

    WHY YOU'LL LOVE OUR ALL-PURPOSE FLOUR


    Milled from

    100% USA-grown hard red winter wheat

    Protein

    11.7%

    Our unbleached all-purpose flour is milled from the innermost heart of the wheat berry, which contains the lightest color and the richest, gluten-producing protein. It has the strength to yield high-rising yeast bread dough, yet is mellow enough for tender, flaky biscuits, moist, high-rising pancakes, and perfect scones.

    Our 100% organic all-purpose flour is grown using certified organic farming methods, and is the nation's top-selling organic all-purpose flour.
     
  18. panini

    panini

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  19. chicagoterry

    chicagoterry

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    So that labeling seems to contradict what they say in their website marketing copy, doesn't it?

    Maybe it's the addition of barley flour that brings the protein percentage down? I guess that addition makes AP flour a mixture of higher and lower protein flours.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2015
  20. panini

    panini

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    @ChicagoTerry  ,

    I think you have figured it out. Malted Barley Flour is pretty low in protein(less gluten). I think the kind they use for flour has the enzymes left in it. Diastatic. If I'm remembering right,

    those enzymes are proteins that get neutered with heat. Sorry, don't have any scientific names in my head. I willing to bet the KA also sells that Malted Barley Flour. I'm gonna look at lunch time.

    Good work!