Shibata Kotetsu VS Masakage Kumo

Discussion in 'Cooking Knife Reviews' started by eduardo castro, Dec 9, 2016.

  1. eduardo castro

    eduardo castro

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    Hi! i want to bought a new knife and i'm between a Shibata Kotetsu 240mm R2 powdered steel and the Masakage Kumo 210mm VG10 steel any toughts about those knives?


     
  2. rick alan

    rick alan

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    2 totally different knives, so what are you really thinking here?  It is unclear what you are looking for.

    I will say that I would never spend $340 for a VG-10 knife, it's not that great a steel.
     
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  3. millionsknives

    millionsknives

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    The thing about expensive knives is that you will scratch them up sharpening.  Then they don't look as nice.   The other thing about nice knives is they get stolen.

    For work, my priority is different than for collecting.  My priorities and everybody's can be different of course

    1) Grind, cutitng performance

    2) Profile - I don't care how nice it cuts if it is not a shape I want to use

    3) Ease of sharpening  - I like wide bevel carbons because they are so easy to maintain and make them look 'like new'

    4) edge retention - this a struggle with #3 and sometimes #1.  You can't have it all

    5) handle -this is low on the list because with a good grip you can use any knife and also I can replace handles

    6) fit and finish  -low on the list unless it is glaringly bad on an expensive knife.  Typically you can round the spine etc on your own

    7) price - i don't bring anything more than $150 to work

    So what is important to you?  Cutting performance, sharpenability, edge retention?  Budget?
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
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  4. brianshaw

    brianshaw

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    Judging by your pictures alone... they look beautifully crafted!
     
  5. eduardo castro

    eduardo castro

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    i have my whole set for work, i just love knives and i want another :) also i saw the Masakage at 258 usd but about spend to much on vg10 it's a good point!
     
  6. eduardo castro

    eduardo castro

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    i have my whole set for work, i don´t scratch while sharpening so it's not a problem and i wouldn't take this knife at work i just love knives and i want another that look and perform beautifully and both are stainless, i've heard a lot of good things about the Shibata Kotetsu and none of the Masakage but i have to admit that Kumo looks better (by the look) for me and i can only afford one of them :) 
     
  7. millionsknives

    millionsknives

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    You have to scratch up the sides or you only work the bevel. If you sharpen a pencil, how long will it be effective never removing the wood part?

    There is a world of better vendors and knives than cktg IMO. I wouldnt spend $300 there
     
  8. foody518

    foody518

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  9. rick alan

    rick alan

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    I really haven't a feel yet for what would really please you, but I don't think it would be the Masakage.  A lot of knives have excellent resale value, like 80% and sometimes better if you hold onto them a bit, makes trading-up a lot easier, but that wouldn't apply to the MK.  Bottom line, you can go for a $300 dollar range knife now, and swing to something around $600 when you've saved a bit more cash.  And the are some really snazzy looking as well as great performing knives in that range

    Shiro Kamo R2 is a very attractive Damascus-clad, and a great cutter too.

    SK distributors you have to choose from:

    http://shibataknives.com/retailers/

    What do you really want from this knife, in terms of performance? Because the knives you picked go from mediocre middleweight to first rate, but flexy, laser
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  10. scott livesey

    scott livesey

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    unless you need the knife tomorrow, SHOP.  for the $300+ you would send to Japan for a blade probably made in PRC, you can get a custom blade made here in the USA by someone who cares about making the best blade for you, not $$$$.

    scott
     
  11. uneunsae

    uneunsae

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    Scott, just because you make your own knives doesn't give you the right to smear Japanese smiths who have a stellar reputation for a reason.  Slander is not the way to promote your own products, you'll soon discover.
     
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  12. scott livesey

    scott livesey

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    not trying to promote my stuff, first of all not allowed, second i don't make knives like that.  you don't know what is happening 8000 miles away.  large companies out source, assemble the pieces and afix their name.   when ever someone asks for recommendations, the first replies are almost always Japanese makers.  no one mentions Lamson, Nora, Calton, Warther, R Murphy, New West Knifeworks, Cut Brooklyn, Saba, Cangshan, serenity, HHH custom,. Salem Straub, and the list goes on.  lots of beginners here would probably be better off with something from Old Hickory or Case or Rada to learn with.  

    scott
     
  13. uneunsae

    uneunsae

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    Looking through all of your posts, you do the same thing that you accuse the people here of - having an extreme bias towards American makers.  Do you have a personal issue with anything that's not made in the USA?  Because honestly, that's how you come across to me.  Can you show us which of these Japanese smiths mass produce in China?   Just because someone is closer to home doesn't make them more trustworthy... unless you go there personally and watch them make the exact knife they are selling to you.  Many knife vendors DO visit these smiths in Japan and see their outfit for themselves.

    There are also many technical reasons and personal preferences that would lead someone to choose a Japanese blade.  

    By all means, there's nothing wrong with recommending American makers based on technical information, but you seem to have a vendetta against Japanese makers.  Otherwise you wouldn't spread false rumors about them.  
     
  14. foody518

    foody518

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    Cangshan's Chinese. I'd be surprised if the Masakage brand had bigger output than an R Murphy, New West Knifeworks, or possibly a Warther. I've looked at those 3 and just decided that as a short person, for the money I can get knife profiles more suited to my cutting motion. Not to mention we are not talking the same price range as Serenity or HHH at all. The folks who come here with a $500-1000 dollar per knife recommendation can certainly look at those.
     
  15. brianshaw

    brianshaw

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    nevermind...
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  16. rick alan

    rick alan

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    Well for the record, there are a number of cheap blades made in China:

    Ikea for example has/had a damascus clad VG10 they were selling for $70

    I don't doubt many Globals are PCR

    The really cheap home kitchen knives of Wusty and Henckles, pretty sure PCR.

    And I do believe it possible that Tojiro's DP line gets made there, which should concern no one as we all know its commendable reputation, along with Victorinox and the Wusthof Pro series, if I'm not completely mistaken.  

    But absolutely none of the above-entry-level Japanese knives, at least the ones that get a mention here, are made in China.  And even if by some slim chance they were (China just does not have the army of skilled craftsman,), it wouldn't matter as these knives have an a pretty impeccable reputation.
     
  17. scott livesey

    scott livesey

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    I apologize to anyone who felt smeared by my comment.  trouble with making broad comments.  Spyderco has problems with counterfeit copies of their knives being made in PRC then exported to US under different names, same thing is probably happening in kitchen knives.  I am not biased against Japanese smiths or German smiths or English knifemakers.  Just never see an American company or smith even mentioned.  here is discussion with owner of Spyderco http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?4,63061

    I will admit, I have never seen or touched a new knife made by a small Japanese maker, joy of living in a small town.  I have seen some Shun at the local Williams/Sonoma, when I asked to handle one the sales person walked away.  I guess i don't see the mystique.  

    scott
     
  18. brianshaw

    brianshaw

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    Scott: The mystique of any knife isn't as much what you see as it is what you feel and experience. :). But thanks for plugging alternatives... it richens the discussion.

    I've been noticing an interesting thing about Chinese knock-offs of many products... they often are quite good. Very unlike "the olden days".
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  19. rick alan

    rick alan

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    Scott, I plugged you in a couple recent posts because I felt the small kitchen knives you were offering were good dollar value, and people would be interested, especially in customs.

    But none of us here know of American makers who can do a 240 gyuto/chefs, for example, that could complete price-for-quality with Japanese makers.  Typically American smiths are getting around $4-500, and much more, for a plain 240 Gyuto that, with a few exceptions, would be about the equal of an Itonomon Kasumi for around $200.  You mentioned Calton Cutlery, I saw a chefs on his site that looked good, but for $300+.  That's Konosuki range now, $350, but just a couple years back they were selling for $250.  Demand commands the price, they're not really better than Japanese knives costing considerably less, so you don't see us plugging them here either.

    Still, for someone who wanted a good knife in a particularly American steel, like 52100, or particular tool steel that can't easily be found overseas, or if they wanted specif blade profiles or handles, then Calton is a definitely a consideration, and definitely worth the money if his HT's are on and he guarantees customer satisfaction, which most American Smiths do.  If you know of more makers like Calton then go right ahead and plug them.

    It is good that you admitted no knowledge of Japanese knives, because herein lies the problem.  As you know performance is a numbers game - Steel used, quality of heat treat, grind, especially edge thickness, etc.  You get to know Japanese and you quickly see the dollar/performance value you can find there.  Shun, BTW, cannot be considered a Japanese knifes so far as most of their offerings are concerned.  Again, it's a numbers game, and the numbers for their Classic and Premier lines put them in the low-end of entry level Japanese knives, performance-wise.  In terms of Fit/Finish they are very good, except the tacky decals that wear quickly disintegrate, but overall not as good as other knives in the price range, like a Geshin Gonbei.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
  20. foody518

    foody518

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    Another factor is the amount of broad name recognition and appeal that separates a 'Spyderco' from a 'Masakage'. Why would you counterfeit a brand that only a relatively small quantity of people even know of in the first place?
     
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