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Discussion in 'Cooking Knife Reviews' started by roaddog, Apr 30, 2012.
Sorry, last post should say, "should I be putting an edge on the other side"
Sorry to pester (foodie) or anyone who can help me on my recent posts? I am desperate to get my tojiro DP knives razor sharp as they where out of the box. Was going to go with shapton glass, then have been looking at stones with varying grit sizes. Any suggestions would be great. Thanks CT
Shapton Pro, Shapton Glass, and Naniwa Chosera are 3 brand options that are splash and go or pretty close to it. As you've said, it's just a difference to little to no pre-soaking, vs stones made to be soaked in order to be well lubricated for sharpening.
I don't own any Shapton Glass, but generally it's known as a line of stones that are splash and go, very resistant to wear+dishing, but sometimes lacking feedback
Did you buy the Tojiro DP gyuto? I would be quite surprised if it was really only sharpened on one side, versus merely have a small bevel on one of the sides. If it's a gyuto/chef's knife, please bevel both sides at least some
With something like a new Tojiro DP, I'd look to getting a stone in the 800-1500 grit range, and then one that's ~4000-6000 grit. Coarse stone to be added as needed
Excellent, many's thanks foodie. Shapton it is then, if I can find one in uk? When you say course grit to be added when needed, would that be when knife gets chipped or dull and need a lot more work?
Would you recommend a honing rod to keep edge throughout working week? Thinking of my work schedule and generally chef doesn't have that much spare time to spend sharpening knives. As I am going to add to my Japanese collection very soon, thinking ceramic honing rod may be way forward but I am led to believe it can mess up your knife as difficult to get right?
Thanks again foodie
Looks like knivesandtools.co.uk stocks both Shapton Glass and Naniwa Professional (new Chosera)
Coarse stone for bigger damage removal and also when the knife gets thick behind the edge through repeated sharpenings.
Is your Tojiro the Tojiro DP? The steel on these doesn't particularly bend nor get realigned well with rods. If you have the space to pull out a fine stone when needed, dampen with a some water, and do some strop strokes, see if you can try to go with that during your work schedule
I have the tojiro DP, besides the handle being a little short and lightweight, the knife is sublime. I am guessing you would have to pay a hell of a lot more to get a knife that totally outshines this. That raises the question is it justifiable? A different type of knife yes, but for this type and cost??
Foodie, can't thank you enough man.
In answer to your question dazrg, for a knife that is going to see a lot of board wacking in a pro setting you I think you would find "relatively" marginal advantages in knives made of conventional high end Japanese and Swedish stainless steels and costing 2+ times the Tojiro. Next big step up here would be the PM steels like SRS-15, HAP40 and ZDP-189, there you are looking at about $300-$500+ for a workhorse.
Keep a piece of cardboard in your station. Occasionally during the day, pull it out and use it to strop your knife. Go back to work.
For softer steels yes but I'm not sure stropping on cardboard works much on a hard steel like VG-10, and a stone will give you a much keener edge. For the cat's pajamas I recommend picking up a DMT Extra-Extra fine, preferably 8", and mount it on a wood paddle. Just 1 light strop per side will get you to real sharp. Maybe though use the cardboard at first till you're comfortable with that.
I am not sure if my knife would be considered a hard or soft steel, it's a MAC Professional, but at any rate...I just know cardboard works for me in the middle of a long prep day for a quick refresh. But yeah for a keener edge it goes on my stones at home.
The MAC is around 58RC, Tojiros vary quite a bit as I understand, it is a $70 knife after all, but some are hard enough to micro-chip considerably, so over 60RC, which is a significant difference.
From the MAC website
Most other sources generally seem to say 60 degrees Rockwell C, but I assume they are just pulling the number out of the quoted range that best suits their purpose.
I guess MAC has quite a range too. From what I've heard in the knife-geek forums over the years they seem to average in the high fifties.
I could be happy with both but personally I'd prefer MAC steel to VG-10, and there is another thing about VG-10 that makes it less ideal for unloaded stropping. The edge truncates rather quickly [for high-end steel], then degrades relatively slowly from there, holding well to a nicely serviceable if not super edge.
I never had any luck with the paper/cardboard stropping with the one VG-10 knife I had, except near the tip where it had apparently been overheated in the sharpening/polishing process. There it would produce a thick and tenacious buur that was impossible to remove except by finishing it at a rather obtuse angle. But I would sharpen all acute, then pull the burr straight with a quick stropping when needed.
Which comes to a point that might have already been stated, VG-10 does real nice with a 20deg+/side microbevel, so it's a good choice for general prep in a restaurant environment.
Near as I can tell the range is due to the different series of knives and the fact that they use three different steels. Different steels for different series. They are pretty closed mouthed as which specific steels, instead using generic terms when describing the steels.
Hello, I am currently using my tojiro
DP gyuto for most prep jobs in the kitchen and it for the price,as previously discussed, it really is a great knife. I am excited about my next Japanese knife, which I am looking to buy as soon as possible. Using Rick Allen's witty quote of the " cats pyjamas", getting as close to this as possible with my next knife would be great. I have been looking at takamura and kohetsu hap40, but moving towards takamura as is lighter and thinner. Any thoughts on the differences is keeping an edge and sharpening? Thinking of a santoku but have always used a chef knife. Would it be worth it when I have a chef knife and petty? Any thoughts on other steels/ knifes such as ZDP 189?
Knives in ZDP tend to be real expensive, and I here they are more prone to chipping and take a good deal of effort to sharpen. Haven´t used HAP40, nor have I heard any favorable or unfavorable comparisons to R2/SG-2 steel. You do have to micro-bevel R2 to prevent micro-chipping, HAP40 may or may not be better in that respect. HAP40 is semi-stainless while R2 is fully stainless (a relative term of course). The Takamura is a laser, I don´t know of any lasers in HAP40, and people do complain about the grinds on the Kohetsu HAP40 being a little thick and otherwise clunky.
I certainly like my Takamura Migaki, you can´t beat it for the price, but I don´t use it for serious board work so don´t know exactly how well it holds an edge there. I just know it takes a wicked edge comparable to good carbon, and holds it well for the use I put it to, and of course acid foods don´t degrade it like they do carbon, or semi-stainless for that matter. Sorry but this is about all I can tell you.
Thanks rick, definitely helped me with the decision making. The Talented it is...just need to find a UK site to buy it from which is causing me much distress. It seems here in UK, access to really good Japanese knives/ stones are a lot less common than that over the pond! I have been looking for a gesshin 6000 for finer polishing from my naniwa 1000/300....but no dice. May have to go with Shapton glass HR or Naniwa pro. As you have the mikagi do you have a recommendation on which stone would be best. I imagine that a good synthetic will sharpen most good knives, so my question is a little out of curiosity I suppose. You have mentioned the muddied effect caused by using stones in one of your posts. I get this from using my naniwa. Is this a result of soaking time or lack of it? Do you Know how long this type of stone should be soaked for as I have read varying info from keeping them is soak to soaking for 10 mins!
The takamura it is...
You´ll be very happy with the Takamura. Niniwa Super is a muddy stone and should only need 5-6 minutes soaking. The Niniwa pro is a spash and go, don´t leave it in water for it will disintergrate. Shapton korumaku is a good stone, not a mudder and cheaper than the Niniwa pro.
Coincidentally enough, after much research two years ago I decided on two Takamura Petty knives (R2 powdered stainless steel) and Shapton glass for sharpening. This was an upgrade to real chef knives from Chicago Cutlery knives we got as wedding presents in 1988. I'd always wanted Wusthoff (yeah I know that's a bad word here for some) but then saw Shuns (another somewhat bad word) at William Sonoma and discovered the mania for Japanese steel.