Sakai Takayuki dissapointment....

Discussion in 'Cooking Knife Reviews' started by kitchenpig, Aug 27, 2013.

  1. kitchenpig

    kitchenpig

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    This is what happened to one of my Takayuiki knives. I have always cleaned them and dried them after each use even though I bought these knives as non staining/rusting. I bought a 300$ Moritaka from Paul's and returned ir after two days of staring at it because of being affraid of issues like that.
    I've had them for three years, using it once a week.
    Knives were left in a pot filled with water after slicing a mild sausage and green onions.
     
  2. mostadonte2

    mostadonte2

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    That's some weird stains, looks like acid burn :-/ Are you sure it was just plain water?
     
  3. pahi53

    pahi53

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    How long have you had the Takayuiki knives? I had the same problem with a Mac chef's knife after 25 years of use. Finally got rid of it and purchased a Richmond 240 Artifex./img/vbsmilies/smilies/thumb.gif
     
  4. kitchenpig

    kitchenpig

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    Im a single parent with a 4 year old daughter. My mother living upstairs cooks for my kid while im working. I rarely cook since i dont really have time. Most of the time i will eat something on the way home knowing that my kid has been fed. Thus i only use these knives once a week. My background is european and i dont use any spicy/acidic stuff for cooking.

    Most of the time knives are used to slice meat/green onions etc... some simple stuff.

    Spoke to Paul today from Paul's finest, here is what his response was:

    "

    All knives will rust if left in contact with water for any length of time. You say you left it in a pot for two days... that would certainly do it, especially if there was anything acidic in the pot (which can cause dramatic pitting to any metal), or if the pot was made of some other metal that would then cause a reaction between the two metals.

    I would suggest simply cleaning the blade very well with something mildly abrasive like ajax, then doing a full resharpening of the edge, grinding out any imperfections."

    "

    This is no defect -- you must never leave knives in water. After using your knife, you should leave it on the cutting board, then wash and dry and store it immediately. Every knife I sell comes with a slip of paper explaining proper care, including not to leave them sitting in water. Any metal left in water for an extended period of time can rust. Japanese knives especially, as they use a harder steel with more carbon in them."

    This comes off his web site:

    "impregnated with epoxy so they're durable and watertight) handles, and the blade consists of a hammered "damascus" style stainless steel cladding over a VG10 steel core and cutting edge. VG10 is a very, very good choice of steel for the cutting edge (many very high end Japanese knives use this same steel), so you get great performance and great looks"

    I call this BIG BS. I have a set of Gerlach Cutlery that is three generations old. Stainless Steel. I have never seen a spot of rust on these and they are very old. My Great Grandfather used them first, then they were passed to my Grandfather later my Mom and me.

    Will never purchase a Takayuki knife, NEVER. If i abused them or anything i understand, but not the way i used them-once a week or maybe not even that.Im not in the food industry. I believe Paul should replace it or get Takayuki to replace it since he is the dealer. This in my opinion is a defect! 

    I spent close to 1500$ at his online store and he will not see a penny more of my money. not a good experience.









     
  5. kitchenpig

    kitchenpig

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  6. pahi53

    pahi53

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    IMHO...Crappy knife!/img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif
     
  7. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    Recently I read an article concerning rust forming on stainless steel. It occurs when the chromium oxide has been stripped away (or chipped I suppose) and comes in contact with a chloride (and perhaps other materials).
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
  8. jbroida

    jbroida

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    hate to say it, but this is entirely user error
     
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  9. vic cardenas

    vic cardenas

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    I'm siding with Paul, Jon and Benuser on this. This is clearly gross misuse on your part. I would never let a knife touch a pot of water. Maybe a plastic container and maybe for 10 minutes. But not likely because I care about my investment. Not a pot for 2 days!!!  I would assume that those chips were there during use and the metal underneath will react, even if stainless, to green onions and other acidic foods. And then once it hit the pot, which will cause more chips, it will get attacked by whatever is in the pot, including acids and other metals. Water causes rust on all metal if left for prolonged periods of time... even stainless. I wipe my knives dry after each use, including all my stainless and store them in an area that won't get hit by stray water.  
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
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  10. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    My older carbon steel Sabatiers get wiped and cleaned within 15 minutes of use or sooner as do my stainless blades. I'd invoke better care than what the OP described.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
  11. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    And you can send that knife to a competent bladesmith to have the edge reground and sharpened. All is certainly not lost.
     
  12. pahi53

    pahi53

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    Chipped edge, 10 degrees, approx. cost for the knife, $199? You certainly did not get the bang for your buck$  Like I said earlier,Crappy knife. I wouldn't be surprised if some of you Knife enthusiast (euphemism for Knife Knut's) treat your knives better than your Pets. Of course that's my opinion and you know what they say about opinions.
     
  13. jbroida

    jbroida

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    i think what people forget is that spending more money can get you better performance, but it comes at a cost... the more money you spend, the better your skills will need to be to get the most out of it and care for/maintain it properly.  The above knife is nothing special, but its not a bad knife by any means either.  It is actually on the more abuse-friendly side of japanese knives.  All is not lost, and this can be easily fixed, but what really needs to change is the way you treat your tools.  If this is the way you expect to treat knives, then buy knives that are appropriate for this kind of treatment.

    Quick car analogy... you can get away with a lot of abuse to a honda civic... putting in the wrong kind of gas, missing oil changes, not doing maintenance  But when you own a lotus, these kinds of mistakes will cause serious problems.

    Maybe forschner is a better fit in this case... but if you left a forschner in water for 2 days, it would probably rust a bit too.  At least it wont chip as much on you.
     
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  14. mostadonte2

    mostadonte2

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    Oh shit, I thought those chips were made by corrosion.... :)
     
  15. pahi53

    pahi53

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    Majority of the reply's seem to be putting the onus on you and not the quality of this particular dud that you purchased. After reading the above I agree with you that Paul is trying to weasel out of his responsibility to replace the Knife. If every product that's sold on the market is perfect then we're wasting our tax $$$ on the Federal Trade Commission (FTC)/img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif  Good Luck!!!
     
  16. just jim

    just jim

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  17. galley swiller

    galley swiller

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    I've looked at the pictures and my perspective is not as a chef, but as a person living on salt water with corrosion problems as a day-to-day issue, especially concerning salt water.  Stainless steel issues are always being discussed among sailors.

    First, I'm noting that all of the identifiable corrosion is taking place on the central core, especially along the edge.  I did not see any corrosion on the cladding.  If the heel of the blade was also immersed, I think that if you took a magnifier and examined the exposed heel of the blade, you might also see a pattern of red/orange oxidation in the middle of the san-mai construction, right along the line of the core.

    I will take a small guess here, since I'm running from past general discussions about clad knives, that it's often the case that the harder core is often surrounded by a softer cladding which is intended to protect the core from corroding.

    I also note that you said that you left the knife in a pot of water after cutting up some mild sausage and some onion.

    What I think happened is the same as what happens on a boat when you have dissimilar metals that are either in direct contact or are in a medium where there is an electrolyte: you end up creating the classic example of a battery, where you had an anode and a cathode, with a means of electrically connecting the two.  The current that's created doesn't have to be much, but the cathode ends up being eaten away very rapidly.

    The softer, but more resistant to rusting cladding is the anode.  The harder core, which is more prone to corrosion, is the cathode.  The remains of the sausage (with fats and other solvent-resistant greases) and the onion which you chopped up (the juices of the onion being acidic) served as the electrolyte.  And any heat in the water in the pot would serve as an energy source to speed up the process.

    The pattern of corrosion is also suggestive of electrolytic action.  The pattern is not uniform along the edge, but is instead clumped in spots - probably where there was the most residual electrolyte (fat and onion juice).  There is a strip right at the tip - right where there would have been use of the tip for cutting.  Electrolytic corrosion is also highest where the amount of metal is proportionally less concerning the surface area - which fits the description of the edge, where a blade by definition is thinnest, and therefore has the greatest surface to volume.

    Especially on salt water, having dissimilar connecting metals on a boat is a fast way to end up with major corrosion and metal failure.  One local rigger brings plenty of rigging failure examples to seminars, and then shows and explains what happened.

    It's a shame what happened, but I think it will be an example to all of us to just not leave any knife in water.

    Galley Swiller
     
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  18. galley swiller

    galley swiller

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    It's the morning after I wrote the above, and I kept mulling over what I wrote as I went to bed.  So, I've just reviewed what I said and also re-viewed the pictures, especially the second set of much more detailed photos,

    And my earlier conclusion is significantly strengthened.

    When I re-examined the detail photos, I noticed two things - 1) the "chips" are all semi-oval, and are surrounded by varying levels of corrosive degrading; and 2) at a number of the ovals, there is a straight thin band of metal activity (I don't want to call it corrosion, but it was clearly some form of metal activity) running at as near to right angles from the edge and terminating at the cladding (it's not present everywhere).

    Chipping did not occur on this knife.  Corrosion did.  The thin bands running at right angles to the edge are where the electrical mini-current connected the cladding to the active corrosion point.

    As both Benuser and Kokopuffs noted, rust can start where chromium oxide is worn away.  The reason that we don't see corrosion much more often in stainless steel is that normally, the surface chrome in stainless steel is very reactive to oxygen.  Once it does react, it forms a surface patina that is both tightly binding to the steel and is resistant to further oxidation for any underlying metal.

    But once the surface chromium oxide is removed, especially in an environment weak in free oxygen (such as immersion in water), then water and iron are free to react together, and the chrome in stainless steel is an irrelevancy.  That's why on boats, stainless steel is NEVER supposed to be used on any outside-hull location below the waterline.

    On sailboats with stainless steel rigging, post-failure analysis often shows "crevice corrosion", where water gains entry through a pinhole in the chromium oxide - and surface tension allows more water to enter, blocking off free oxygen and allowing for corrosion to spread through the steel.  The iron is oxidized into rust, exits through the surface of the object, and is replaced by water, which continues the process, until the steel is eaten away, often still leaving the surface of the object still looking whole and shiny.

    Remember also, this knife has probably over 90% of its surface area covered by cladding - the anode.  The corrosion is along the edge - right where the knife would have had the greatest wear.  Each oval of corrosion (and initially it would likely have begun as a point of wear at the edge) would have started and continued where there was no protective layer of chromium oxide.  With that large a surface area of anode to tiny pinprick areas of cathode, it's not surprising that there would be a concentration of galvanic action.

    We don't normally see such corrosion on our stainless knives because we clean the full surface of the knife and the edge and then leave the cleaned surface open to oxygen in the air, allowing for chromium oxide to form on newly-exposed steel.  Here, there was no chance for chromium oxide to form, and a perfect storm of conditions allowed for the corrosive action to occur.

    Galley Swiller
     
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  19. vic cardenas

    vic cardenas

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    I learned something today. 
     
  20. mostadonte2

    mostadonte2

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    Galley Swiller, not sure how right you are about this case but it was very interesting to read your posts.