Question about thickening Tomato Sauce using FLOUR & STARCH

Discussion in 'Food & Cooking' started by faz83, Apr 16, 2011.

  1. faz83

    faz83

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    Hi Hi Everyone

    Im new to this board and wish you all the best.

    Im making a tomato sauce using canned diced tomatoes and tomato ketchup for a chunky warm dipping sauce and would like to know which of the following methods is the correct way to thicken the sauce using Flour and Corn Starch?

    1. Add cornstarch or Flour to simmered runny tomatoes then add ketchup?
    2. Make a roux add ketchup and add the mixture to simmered runny tomatoes?
    3. Darken flour in butter then add ketchup then add the mixture to simmered tomatoes?

    Thank you and all the best
     

    Everyone
     
  2. chefross

    chefross

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    You could just cook the sauce for awhile to concentrate the flavor and evaporate the liquid, or you could add tomato paste to help thicken it.
     
  3. faz83

    faz83

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    Thank you for your reply, im trying to avoid concentration of the tomatoy flavor and im after some neutral tomato flavor not as tomatoy as pasta sauce and not to ketchupy.
     
  4. kyheirloomer

    kyheirloomer

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    For a regular sauce I agree with ChefRoss; you cook it down and/or add tomato paste.

    If I'm reading you correctly, however, you're looking for a sauce that has pieces of tomato mixed through it. If so, then cooking down the tomatoes won't work, because you'll lose the dice.

    However, you can strain the tomatoes and thus eliminate some of the liquid. Line a strainer with cheesecloth, and you should stop almost all of the solids. You can then control the amount of liquid by:

    1. Just using the ketchup (although I don't understand going that route at all).

    2. Adding in just enough of the tomato liquid to meet your needs.

    3. Cooking down the liquid, adding whatever flavorings you like, then returning the solids to that sauce.
     
  5. koukouvagia

    koukouvagia

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    You lost me on "ketchup." 

    To make a thick tomato sauce you add tomato paste and then let the sauce simmer uncovered for the liquid to evaporate until it becomes the consistency you like.  Personally I would not put flour in it but to each their own. 
     
  6. chefbillyb

    chefbillyb

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    Don't cook the sauce, use a blender to break down the diced tomatoes then add the seasonings your looking for. once you get the consistency you want, heat it up.....If you were making a Sweet and Sour sauce, you would use a corn starch to thicken. You would use Arrowroot for fruit base thickening, or a reduction. Let us know what your looking to dip in the sauce. Cocktail sauce is ketchup based, Tartar is Mayo based, Fry sauce is Mayo and ketchup based with some seasonings.......ChefBillyB
     
  7. benway

    benway

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    While what you described sounds pretty gross, if one needed to thicken such a concoction with starch, arrowroot would be the most appropriate.  I typically use arrowroot for anything that doesn't contain eggs or dairy--that's what cornstarch is for.
     
  8. butzy

    butzy

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    @chefbilly

    As far as I know cocktail sauce is tomato ketchup - mayonaise based, at least in Holland. Normally with a dash of whiskey or so in it as well.

    Would this just be a another difference in the way recipes/names are different in some countries (like for me an entree is a starter...)?

    Very interested in how you make yours?

    Not wanting to hijack the thread, but just curious
     
  9. chrisbelgium

    chrisbelgium

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    Fast and delicious;

    - first, sweat a chopped onion + choipped clove of garlic in some olive oil

    - add tomatoes, s&p, pinch of chiliflakes and my secret ingredient; break off a good corner from a chickenstock cube and crumble over the tomatoes

    (I always use Knorr or Italian Star cubes)

    - let simmer without a lid until desired thickness. No need to thicken with starch. Some basil leaves in there will do miracles.
     
  10. chefbillyb

    chefbillyb

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    HI Butzy, Cocktail sauce in the states is ...Ketchup, horseradish, lemon juice, Woo sauce ( Worcestershire Sauce) they use it for a dipping sauce for Cooked shrimp, crab or fried seafood like fried shrimp and clam strips, raw clams and oysters.................
     
  11. faz83

    faz83

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    Big thanks for all the replies guys. What im trying to achieve is to have a warm tomatoy sauce that goes well with burgers and fries and doesnt taste like pasta sauce (tomato paste flavor)

    I first sweat the onions in butter then add the tomatoes without the juice along with sugar and some spices, then add water and let it simmer for an hour to loosen up the tomatoes and blend the flavours. Next i add a little bit of baking soda to reduce the strong tomato acid flavour, i let it simmer for a little then i add bit of ketchup salt & pepper and bring to boil then let cool.

    At this stage the sauce is still watery and needs to be thicker. If i reduce the sauce, i will get a stronger tomato flavour which im trying to avoid and also the sauce becomes very dark.

    I have tried xanthan gum to emulsify everything and make things thicker but im curious to know if adding starch or flour the correct way would get me closer to my goal.

    so i dont know guys, maybe what im doing is completely wrong ?

    cheers
     
  12. koukouvagia

    koukouvagia

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    It may not be completely wrong but I'm afraid that next you will tell us that you'll be adding play-doh to make the concoction redder.  I've never heard of making a tomato sauce not taste like tomatoes and I'm baffled as to how to help you do that, maybe just keep adding additives. 
     
  13. faz83

    faz83

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    Hehe yes i dont blame you. Have you had MOS cheeseburger ? Im not trying to achieve that exact taste but its sauce consistency is what im after.
     
  14. benway

    benway

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    Sounds like you're trying to invent ketchup.



    So you use baking soda to neutralize some acid but then come back and add ketchup?  Conceptually this makes no sense.  Ketchup's main ingredients are tomatoes, vinegar, and sugar.  If the tomatoes are too acidic, why in the sam hell would ketchup make it better?


    Xanthan gum is often called an emulsifier but its really not.  If an emulsifier makes oil stick to water on a molecular level, xanthan gum makes anything stick to anything at any temperature.  Its a stabilizer/thickener.  It is a hydrocolloid with a low yield point.  It acts like a gel when your solution is a rest, and a liquid when you go to pour it.  Its not a bad choice to thicken with but if you add too much it makes your solution like snot.

    You're lost.  Quit worrying about the technicalities and try really explaining the finished product you are hoping to achieve.  What do you want it to taste like, what should the consistency be?
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2011
  15. faz83

    faz83

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    I need the consistency of MOS burger RED sauce, it does not taste like tomatoes. Thank You
     
  16. benway

    benway

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    By MOS burger RED sauce I assume you're talking about the stewed tomato based meat sauce?  Do you like the flavor of the sauce you described above or do you want that changed as well?

    That sauce has ground meat in it like a bolognese to make it thick.  If you are after that consistency you should be looking for something else to play the part of ground meat.  You could thicken in the style of a mole or a chili and add breadcrumbs, tortilla, or crackers.  Eventually they will fall apart and thicken your sauce very quickly yielding that chunky meaty consistency like a chili.  This would be a good approximation of MOS burger meat sauce.
     
  17. chefedb

    chefedb

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    I don't think any one can answer the original question as it is not a tomato sauce to start. If you are going to cook like this , why not just buy a bottle of Ragu or Prego and start there. If your making a tomato kind of soup you can use roux or starch, but not a good sauce. Why not just use tomato powder, H20 and cornstarch or tapioca starch ? If it doesn't come out good you could use it as a base for a non oil paint.
     
  18. faz83

    faz83

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    Yes im talking about the stewed tomato based meat sauce. The mos burger sauce does not entirely consists of meat for the meat to make it thick like hardees chili lava burger.

    Can you tell me how to make a bolognese sauce to get to mos burger tomato based meat sauce consistency?

    Thank you
     
     
  19. chefbuba

    chefbuba

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    Is this the mos burger that you are attempting to duplicate?

    [​IMG]

    I found several threads on google, interesting enough, the founder based his burger on the Tommy's chili burger chain in Los Angeles, this burger sauce looks nothing like the origional, and the recipes I found are nothing close.

    From their website: 

    Mr. Sakurada's dream...


    While working at an investment company in Los Angeles in the 1960s, Mr. Sakurada frequented a local hamburger chain called Tommy's. Inspired by the 'cook to order' concept, and delicious hamburgers at Tommy's, Mr. Sakurada hit on the idea that a counterpart to an American icon would be as popular with his countrymen.  
     
  20. faz83

    faz83

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    yes thats the sauce, im not trying to duplicate the all round taste but want to try and achieve the texture and consistency. Does this sauce contain tomatoes?

    Thanks