Pastry Dough Shrinking After Cutting Using Reversible Sheeter. Rondo Automat / Fritsch Rollfix 600.

Discussion in 'Professional Pastry Chefs' started by krazycookie, May 23, 2017.

  1. krazycookie

    krazycookie

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    Hello Everyone,

    I am stumped.

    Looking to purchase a new Rondo or Fritsch reversible sheeter. Was about to pull the trigger on purchasing one, but after a few test I noticed that my pastry dough is shrinking after I cut into squares. See below for my current dough / setup.

    Dough is made from Butter and Creamcheese base.

    Dough is sheeted cold ( out of fridge) down to 1mm (very thin)  About 10-14 passes to get this thin. Mainly this many passes so we can incorporate some powdered sugar into the dough.

    The problem we just noticed is that after pinning and transferring to a cutting table, when we go to cut the dough into 3" squares the dough snaps back / shrinks a almost 1/4" or more.

    We can't have this with our product.

    Unfortunately, due to the sugars in the dough, we only have minutes to let the dough rest on the pin. Maybe 2-3 minutes, if we let it rest longer it will stick.

    Any other suggestions on how to keep a thin butter creamcheese dough from shrinking after cutting?  Currently we sheet a 5lb piece.

    Any thoughts or ideas would be helpful for sure! 

    Thanks everyone.
     
  2. chefpeon

    chefpeon Kitchen Dork

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    It's not the sheeter. You always need to let dough rest after sheeting it out. 15 minutes minimum so the gluten can relax. Rest it in the fridge after sheeting, then make your cuts.
     
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  3. krazycookie

    krazycookie

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    Thanks for the reply Chefpeon.  The problem with letting it rest in the fridge is it still starts to stick together due to the fact it is so thin even after only a few minutes.  Any other possible ideas?
     
  4. chefpeon

    chefpeon Kitchen Dork

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    What exactly are you trying to make? Knowing that might be helpful. You really can't get around letting the dough rest....it has to. Perhaps take the dough down halfway or three quarters of the way the night before, then do the final passes on the sheeter the next day. That may help, but you're still going to have a little bit of a snapback. The more you work the dough, the worse it will snap back without a good rest. Also, once sheeted, cut the dough squares a little larger to allow for the shrinkage.

    Another thing: what kind of flour are you using? Depending on what you're making, you might be able to sub some of your flour, which I assume is all purpose, for some cake flour which has a lower gluten content. The less gluten in your flour, the less it will snap back.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2017
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  5. someday

    someday

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    Could you cut it bigger to account for shrinkage? 

    Freeze or partially freeze before cutting? 

    Just brainstorming. 
     
  6. krazycookie

    krazycookie

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    Thanks Chefpeon,

    We are making a Rugelach style pastry. Those are all good ideas, we may try to sheet the day 75% of the way then finalize it the next day as you suggested.

    The flour is a standard AP flour.

    Also good ideas "Someday."

    Keep em coming, Thanks everyone!
     
  7. kuan

    kuan Moderator Staff Member

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    Your dough might be too cold.   This might require extra shear pressure to sheet the dough resulting in a tougher dough that needs to relax more.

    Your water content is too high.  This contributes to the formation of gluten.  Use a better butter.

    Your mix cycle is too long, again, toughening the dough.
     
  8. panini

    panini

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    Just my personal opinion:
    If you can't lengthen sleep time, you're probably not going to eliminate any snap/spring.
    I think a partial roll, sleep. finish roll, might result in no reduction in snap and possibly create a tougher chew after bake.
    Sounds like you're already committed to volume. Personally, I think it would be worth the time to do some R&D using a flour with less protein.
    Just a thought. If you're going volume, I would source a named or patented flour. I have never found protein consistency with any APF.
    just sayin
     
  9. chefpeon

    chefpeon Kitchen Dork

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    I'm curious @panini, why do you think that might create a tougher chew?
     
  10. panini

    panini

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    Hey chefpeon., just my opinion. The OP says they roll out of the cooler. My question is, are they retarding the dough, or just hardening up the butter for rolling.
    I personally think if you take the dough down 75% then retard, and finish the next day, the first roll agitates the gluten too unevenly. It's alright to run the dough all the way at one time with the proper formula, but should really be baked then..
    Myself, I would run it down a 1/3rd or 1/2. add 12x powdered sugar with more starch then, give it a tri fold then retard.
    Then finish the next day..
    I mentioned that from experience with shorter doughs. Getting snagged by the clock and put up the dough until the next day, the product always had a denser chew when baked.
    As usual, my disclaimer: I may be absolutely wrong.
    Doesn't hurt to try, I think the op said the were running 5lbs. pieces. If they're not expecting a very large scale up in a short period of time, a table top might be better,
    I mention everything here based on a reversible sheeter. Any well made machine will slow the rear belt going forward. A cheaper machine will speed up both belts at different speeds resulting in more stretching on the forward belt.
     
  11. flipflopgirl

    flipflopgirl

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    Why use powdered sugar at all?

    mimi
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
  12. chefpeon

    chefpeon Kitchen Dork

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    I'm just wondering what the heck this dough even is.......it's not like any rugelach I've ever made.......
     
  13. flipflopgirl

    flipflopgirl

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    IDK.
    Description is making me picture a wet and sticky yeast based dough instead of the sturdy but tender cream cheese and butter crust I use for mine.
    I pulled out all of the recipes passed down thinking I would stumble across one with 10x worked into it but no go.
    Must be a reason but all I can figure is to maybe tenderize as the only time I use it in pastry is for bench work and then it is rare.
    Nothing but a water magnet IMO.

    Maybe krazycookie will drop by and enlighten us by sharing the recipe and we can help with the problem then rest easy knowing there is one more sheeter out there with a steady job lol.

    mimi
     
  14. panini

    panini

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    Who is IDK?
    I agree with you all. To much over thinking going on. I've always used a lower protein flour if my filling was fresh picked and took longer to cook. And a higher protein if using a prepared product and kick it in the oven..Not really concerned that much about resting. I'd just keep it out some to keep it from cracking on the rondo. I take it down all at once. If I needed to dust, I might go to the 6 or 12x. Don't think I would need 16 passes.
    With a five lbs. block, and running 16 passes, the agitation might be creating enough heat to melt the granular sugar inside it.:eek: I sometimes dust then with sugar when done.
    The only other thing this very old and worn out mind can think of is a short mixing time and the cream cheese and butter are very different temperatures.
     
  15. dimitry wongtai

    dimitry wongtai

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    If you have creamcheese in it adding baking soda would help ? i think you are trying to make some puff pastry style or am i wrong ? 
     
  16. kuan

    kuan Moderator Staff Member

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  17. chefpeon

    chefpeon Kitchen Dork

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    @Dimitry Wongtai I'm wondering whether or not it's a laminated dough as well. Would you like to explain your theory behind the cream cheese baking soda thing? I've never heard of that and it sounds a little weird.
     
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  18. Chrisopotamus

    Chrisopotamus

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    It may or may not be helpful, but we had the same problem with our cinnamon roll dough springing back (ours is an extremely wet dough). We also couldn't let it set because it would get too sticky, but we found that letting it have a good 30 minute autolyse rest period in the mixer just after the ingredients were combined stopped the shrinking later on.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2017
  19. krazycookie

    krazycookie

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    Wow! Thank you all for the responses! We will be working on this and some of the above methods over the next few weeks. I will update everyone on our results / findings!

    Thanks again!
     
  20. flipflopgirl

    flipflopgirl

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    :)
    Was wondering what had happened to you @krazycookie .
    Would still like to see your recipe (or is it secret) before you go into R&D and end up wasting a bunch of product (or worse put a less superior product on the shelf).
    You came asking for advice and got great replies from some of our more experienced (decades in the bakery) members but cannot see you landing a hit if you have to go thru and try each and every one...not to mention combining a few and going bust on those runs as well.
    That would take weeks if not months.
    Promise I am not asking for some nefarious reason.
    If you are hesitant to show your cards I get it (I seldom share my most treasured formulas) but like I noted above you could end up wasting both time and $$.
    :emoji_wrestlers:

    mimi

    OBTW... I found the above emoji and cannot find a good place to use it so there ya go... or I could be really clever and philosophical and be using the wrestlers as an example of you fighting the dough.
    Whatever lol.
    :)
    m.