Not a duplicate issue: Need advice on Stand Mixer for Mixing Dough

[psient]

Hello:

I was reviewing the thread started by TyroCook in the hopes of finding a solution to my problem. As I felt I might be highjacking the discussion I kneaded to solicit opinions separable from TyroCook's.

I have been using my KA 6 quart for a couple of years to make artisan bread. I am an avid baker and routinely make bread at least once a week. I also make a variety of other baked goods but bread is the mainstay in my kitchen bakery.

My issue is concerning a middle ground for the type of mixer that will be durable. My KA is dead and I won't be reviving it. I am thus in the market for a mixer that will handle my batches of dough. I won't be able to continue baking until I buy something else.

I routinely mix between 2000 and 3000 gram recipes with 64-68% hydration. I have looked into all of the varieties discussed in the above mentioned thread and they won't do. I am now considering the GLOBE 5 QT.

http://www.globeslicers.com/site/products.asp?id=339

The reason I'm considering this machine over others is the hub; it accepts KA attachments. The mixer seems to fulfill my requirements, but it has a duty cycle of 7 minutes. My mixes frequently require more than this amount of time for sufficient gluten development.

I also would consider the UNIVEX SRM8 and perhaps the Anvil. Outside of these I am trying to avoid 8 quart mixers as they are routinely too massive. 10 quarts are by the previous description also too big. The Hobart is too expensive.

Has anyone any experience with the Globe 5 quart?

Any feedback or insight would be of tremendous help. I wanna get back to my bread.

Thanks in advance,

Jon

 

[kyheirloomer]

I don't think there is any mixer in the class you're talking about that can handle 3000 grams of dough.

3000 grams is approximately 6 1/2 lbs. Even if the Globe is everything they claim, it is only rated for 4.5 pounds. A 2000 gram dough would be just within the claimed ability.

If, as seems to the the case, you've been making 6 1/2 pound dough in the KA it's understandable why it quit. That's way beyond the rated capacity of the Pro 6, especially with the stiff doughs you're describing.

 

[psient]

I don't think there is any mixer in the class you're talking about that can handle 3000 grams of dough.

3000 grams is approximately 6 1/2 lbs. Even if the Globe is everything they claim, it is only rated for 4.5 pounds. A 2000 gram dough would be just within the claimed ability.

If, as seems to the the case, you've been making 6 1/2 pound dough in the KA it's understandable why it quit. That's way beyond the rated capacity of the Pro 6, especially with the stiff doughs you're describing.

I really appreciate the input KYHeirloomer.

I understand and accede to your point. I know it was way outside of the Pro 6s ability. I gradually increased in desire to make 2 loaves at a time and ended up with this amount. It's probably a testimony to the Kitchenaid that it worked so well for so long.

As I have the formula it's a simple matter to reduce the quantity. Soooo . . .  setting the past amount of dough aside and constraining it to 4 pounds; have you had any experience with the Globe machine? Is there another brand I am not aware of that you might suggest please?

Thanks.

Jon

 

[kyheirloomer]

Wish I could help, Jon, but until you posted the link I'd never even heard of Globe.

I've had my KA Pro 6 almost four years, and use it heavily (though not as heavily as you'd used yours). Using up to triple recipes (but more often doubles), baking bread at least once a week, I've not had any problems with it. Indeed, if I were looking for a new mixer I wouldn't hesitate to go with another Pro 6.

I'm trying to work out the capacities. It's difficult, because KA rates its machines in cups of flour, rather than in quantity of dough. Even so, the Pro 6 is rated at 14 cups, which works out at 3.9 pounds of dry flour. 65% hydration would add another 2 1/2 pounds of water, for a total of 6.45 pounds. That's really pushing the envelope, in practical terms, but, apparently you've been getting away with it.

However, the Pro 5 is only rated for 9 cups. That would be 2.5 pounds flour, plus 1.64 pounds of water, for a total of 4.14 pounds. That would mean if the Globe's motor is what they claim, it should handle the 4.5 pounds they rate it at.

A 5-quart capacity bowl will also be handier when you're doing smaller quantities. That's my one complaint with the Pro 6; less than a heavy bread dough and the accessories don't work at their most efficient levels. For instance, try making a small amount of meringue, as Friend Wife once did. That's when I went out and got her a hand mixer. 

 

[kyheirloomer]

Whoops!

Just went back to do some comparisons, and realize the Globe is rated at 4 pounds, not the 4.5 I'd thought. And that's 4 pounds of a very dry dough; less than 50% hydration.

So now I'm confused.

The Globe has an 800 watt, gear-driven motor, and is rated at 4 pounds of dough at their hydration. At 65% the dough would weigh 4.29 pounds.

The Pro 5 has a 325 watt, gear-driven motor, and is rated at 4.14 pounds of dough.

The Commercial 5 has a 450 watt, gear-driven motor, and is rated at 5 pounds of dough.

My speculation is that the gearing in the Globe isn't all it could be. I can't think of another explanation for why it's larger motor pushes so little dough.

Given what info we have, and your avowed needs, I think I'd go with the KA Commercial 5, and keep the dough in the 4 pound range.

 

[petemccracken]

A "point to consider", from the ancient days of my EE classes, input wattage of electric motors has very little relationship as to their ability to "do work" and the efficiency of the gear train can have a significant impact on the amount of output.

 

[boar_d_laze]

A few things

Yes and no on the watts and gear train. 

A 5 qt mixer is going to be marginal.  It's not so much the motor, but two loaves of dough may be able to climb out of the bowl.

Your 3kg figure is very strange; perhaps the transition from metric to avoirdupois was bumpy.  2 loaves of dough is in the neighbrohood of 3 - 4 lbs, not 3kg.  Just to break it down, you're looking at roughly 7 or 8 cups of flour and perhaps a bit more than 3 cups of liquid. 

Another way of looking at it is in terms of standard "1 lb" loaves with 66.6% hydration.  Here's the math.  16 oz of flour x 2 = 32 oz of flour.  32 x 66.6% hydration = 24 oz fluid.  32 oz dry + 24 oz wet = 60 oz total.  60 oz = 3 lbs 12 oz = 1700g = 1.7kg.  Even if you're making extra large, extra slack loaves, you're looking at something a lot closer to 2kg than 3kg. 

If having an accurate weight range helps your search -- there you go!

One of the big 6 qt KAs should be able to handle two loaves, but if you're turned off to them let's not waste time arguing the point.  One of the problems with switching away from KA to anything bigger is that none of your attachments are going to work. 

The big Cuisinart has a pretty good rep for multipe loaves, so do the Viking and Waring "Pro" 7qt.  The DeLonghi/Kenwood seems to have gone to that great kitchen counter in the sky.

You might want to try a come-from-beneath mixer.  A lot of people who bake in your quantities love the Bosch and the Electrolux Assistent.  Both have more efficient drivelines than any of the over-the-top planetaries.  They aren't cheap (Assistent, $620, 8 qt; Bosch, $360, 6.5 qt, actually a very good deal)  but they cost a helluva lot less than the small commercial machines like the 8 qt Globe.  If I were buying a new machine, didn't have to worry about all my KA attachments, and could at all afford it, I'd go Electrolux based on two demos and it's reputation.  Bosch would be my second choice.

I'm pretty much doing all my baking -- two loaf quantity -- entirely by hand.  You get a much better sense of hydration with when mixing with your hands in the dough (spoons are for girls!), and when you consider getting up and down for "autolysis" and "French fold" the extra time spent hand kneading doesn't signify much in terms of overall time or inconvenience. 

Furthermore, prosumer machines can't handle stiff doughs without stalling, so those breads end up with hand finishes; also, it's my experience that you should finish your kneads by hand anyway to get things just right.   At least that's true for the planetary mixers.  I hear the Assistent's roller kneader does some sort of juju which pretty much eliminates the need for the hand knead.   I don't know about the Bosch. 

No real answers, but a few things to think about.

BDL

 

[kyheirloomer]

I've never used a 5-quart machine, BDL, and my gut feeling was the same as yours---that it lacked the physical capacity to handle a double-loaf.

However, the various manufacturers say we are wrong. Virtually all of them are rated for at least four pounds of dough. And the Commercial 5---which must have one hell of a drive train if KA is to be believed---is rated for five pounds.

I've also been mentally fitting a double recipe into my Pro 6, and trying to translate the amount of extra room. That's where it gets hairy. On slower speeds I think a 5-quart would have no difficulty with a double loaf. But once you kick up the speed it might throw the dough around too much, and cause it to climb out.

All speculation on my part. Hopefully, somebody who actually uses a 5-quart machine, can have some answers.

 

[boar_d_laze]

KY,

I cut my teeth on old 5 qt KAs -- from back when they were Hobart and vice versa.  Despite their low wattage ratings, the machines were more than strong enough because of the way their motors were wound. 

However, the 5 qt bowls were marginal for two loaves on any speed, because of the dough's tendency to climb up the hook and over the lip of the bowl.  With the new screw hooks, that may be different.  Don't know. 

Motor and tranny aside, a 5qt bowl is a little small for a recipe with more than 7 cups of flour.  Remember, you want the dough to press up against as much wall as possible while it kneads in order to knead efficiently.  Just spinning around on the hook without mashing against something doesn't do the dough any good. 

I just realized we forgot to ask the OP if he was using all whole-wheat.  That'll eat a tranny.

BDL

 

[kyheirloomer]

Motor and tranny aside, a 5qt bowl is a little small for a recipe with more than 7 cups of flour

I'll bow to your direct experience. As I indicated, I have never used a 5-quart, and anything I said was speculation.

we forgot to ask the OP if he was using all whole-wheat.  That'll eat a tranny.

Yeah, it will. But, given the info he provided, I tend to doubt they were whole grain breads. His Pro 6 lasted too long, at the usage he gave it, for the doughs to have been that tough.

Just spinning around on the hook without mashing against something doesn't do the dough any good. 

Couldn't hurt. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/wink.gif

Seriously, I often find that you have to operate at a higher speed then KA recommends, in order to assure that slap-the-sides movement. Thus my comment, above, about kicking up the speed. I would guess, too, that even if the dough didn't climb out of a 5-quart, at those speeds the machine would walk all over the counter.

 

 

[psient]

Thanks so much for all the feedback. Has anyone had actual use with the globe?

I thought I would clarify the formula basis of my batch. The attachment is the worksheet that I start from when mixing. I don't need to be extremely precise 'cause I'm not marketing the product . . . it's for my own enjoyment.

(OOPS!! naughty naughty no attachments Dr. Jon)

OK so I'll wing it as modern functionality is pending permission.*

My wife figures the KA is fine; we'll just either fix this one (it is easily fixable) or buy a new one. We both agree that the N50 is way overpriced for a kitchen mixer. I might find a good used one on ebay or craigslist but that's very problematic.

This sheet gets modified depending on the requirements of the batch and the condition of the previous bake.

Either way sometimes I push 5 lbs of dough in the KA.

NO whole wheat. The forumula for WW bread is significantly less weight.

Hope this helps,

Jon

*I cannot show you my worksheet so I'll just give you the Flour, Water, Salt \. If a moderator drops in on this discussion please permit me to add attachments. Thank you

all are in grams

1540, 1027, 27

 

[gobblygook]

You're obviously looking for someone with actual experience with the Globe mixer, and I don't have that.  However, I have looked into Globe mixers that are larger (60qt).  One of the thing that bothers me about the larger mixers is again, the time limit that you can run the motor.  From my research a couple of years ago, CiCi's (according to a sales rep for Globe that I spoke to) had chosen to use Globe as their new standard mixer (replacing Hobart, I believe).  If I were in the market right now for a larger mixer, I would seek out a store using one and ask for their opinions (much like you've done here).

The thing that I want to be sure you understand is that the Globe you're interested in, is just like the KA as far as how the power is distributed.  The speed is controlled by how much power gets to the motor.  In larger, commercial planetary mixers, the speed is determined by the transmission gearing.  As such, at low speed, you can mix dough that you couldn't on speed 4.  It works more like the transmission on a car, giving different gear ratios, but the powerplant (motor) still puts out the same work energy. 

If you burned up a KA 6-qt, I think you're going to burn up any other mixer in that same market segment.  I have a Hobart A-120 (12 qt, multi-gear) and when I make thick pizza dough, I can make the motor strain if I try.  However, I picked it up used off ebay and couldn't tell you if a new one would act the same or not.  The price jump is considerable, though a used one could be had for the price of a new KA 6-qt, but you won't get the history and it can be a bit of a crap shoot.  The good news is that you can repair them and it should be the last mixer you ever have to buy -- not that the parts are remotely free or anything.

One other thing I would strongly recommend is that you get a reverse-spiral dough hook.  These look like a very large corkscrew instead of the standard "j" hook.  The reverse-spiral hook will help keep the dough in the bowl rather than on the hook.   The "j" hooks are really bad about carrying the dough around the mixer and the dough climbing up the hook.

 

[psient]

You're obviously looking for someone with actual experience with the Globe mixer, and I don't have that.  However, I have looked into Globe mixers that are larger (60qt).  One of the thing that bothers me about the larger mixers is again, the time limit that you can run the motor.  From my research a couple of years ago, CiCi's (according to a sales rep for Globe that I spoke to) had chosen to use Globe as their new standard mixer (replacing Hobart, I believe).  If I were in the market right now for a larger mixer, I would seek out a store using one and ask for their opinions (much like you've done here).

The thing that I want to be sure you understand is that the Globe you're interested in, is just like the KA as far as how the power is distributed.  The speed is controlled by how much power gets to the motor.  In larger, commercial planetary mixers, the speed is determined by the transmission gearing.  As such, at low speed, you can mix dough that you couldn't on speed 4.  It works more like the transmission on a car, giving different gear ratios, but the powerplant (motor) still puts out the same work energy. 

If you burned up a KA 6-qt, I think you're going to burn up any other mixer in that same market segment.  I have a Hobart A-120 (12 qt, multi-gear) and when I make thick pizza dough, I can make the motor strain if I try.  However, I picked it up used off ebay and couldn't tell you if a new one would act the same or not.  The price jump is considerable, though a used one could be had for the price of a new KA 6-qt, but you won't get the history and it can be a bit of a crap shoot.  The good news is that you can repair them and it should be the last mixer you ever have to buy -- not that the parts are remotely free or anything.

One other thing I would strongly recommend is that you get a reverse-spiral dough hook.  These look like a very large corkscrew instead of the standard "j" hook.  The reverse-spiral hook will help keep the dough in the bowl rather than on the hook.   The "j" hooks are really bad about carrying the dough around the mixer and the dough climbing up the hook.

Thanks Gobblygook

OK so the globe is out. I agree. You say hobart makes a 12 quart? Will it make smaller batches well? I also make a focaccia that's hydrated at 110%. Will the paddle attachment succeed in, what is basically, whipping the dough to full gluten development? I would run the KA at speed 6-8 depending on the environmental conditions with the paddle attachment for focaccia. I never calculated the RPMs but it would have been sufficient to whip cream. My concern with a 12 quart is that 5 pounds of dough would be too small for the bowl size. Consider my dilemma if I buy a larger than 8 quart mixer. . . I'm using a (in this case) 12 quart to create proportional analogs as test batches for my bakery. I think the mixing and gluten developing qualities of a formula my size in a 10-12 quart bowl could easily make the product less. A bowl size more correspondent with the formula quantity was my thinking. Do you agree or see something I've missed? Then there's the counter weight. For instance, the Thunderbird 10 quart weighs 200#s. That's not practical in a home kitchen.

Jon

 

[gobblygook]

The A-120 isn't light.  You're not going to find a 35# mixer that will hold up to what you're throwing at it.  However, if you have the floor space, you can always park it on the floor instead of the counter and just work at odd levels.  5 pounds of dough isn't too small for the 12 quart. 

 

[boar_d_laze]

5 lbs is still only 2270g, and not 3000.  But we're getting there.

5 lbs of (white flour) dough is well within what KA says are the limits of the machine, but based on exprience with a now defunct older 600, that's right at the edge of the envelope.  With a load that large, it's more likely than not to stall before finishing kneading. 

My experience with 5 qt KA and Hobarts is that the dough climbs out of the bowl.  Maybe that was a function of the "S" hook, and maybe the screw type hook fixes the problem, maybe not.  Maybe that wouldn't happen with a Globe, but I wouldn't bet on it.

My limited experience with 12qt mixers is they have an even harder time with thinks like small amounts of egg whites and cream than with single loaf dough batches; but they don't do that well either.  Furthermore, the machines are way to be big and heavy to be residential kitchen friendly; they pretty much need a dedicated stand or at least their own, permanent corner.  I know you're a professional baker, but still...

Everything I've heard from you about your needs (forgive me, I can't help myself), and from serious bakers who've had experience with either or both, makes me think that one of the up-from-beneath belt-drive machines like the Electrolux and Bosch are a better choice for your home kitchen and your baking than any of the down-from-above gear-drive machines. 

I've tried the previous generation Bosch and liked it a heap.  The new gen are supposed to be better.  They're in the same price ballpark as the big KAs and big Cuisinarts.   

The Electrolux is said to be particularly good with breads once you get the hang of it, and very stable to boot.  I've only watched them demoed though, never used one to bake my own bread.  Speaking of demos, think of it as the VitaMix of home mixers, and that should give you some perspective.

Considering that you already have a few attachments and your old machine is repairable, getting it and you back together seems the obvious first choice.  If things don't work out between the two of you, you can buy a new machine later when the attachments are old enough to handle the trauma. 

BDL 

 

[psient]

5 lbs is still only 2270g, and not 3000.  But we're getting there.

5 lbs of (white flour) dough is well within what KA says are the limits of the machine, but based on exprience with a now defunct older 600, that's right at the edge of the envelope.  With a load that large, it's more likely than not to stall before finishing kneading. 

My experience with 5 qt KA and Hobarts is that the dough climbs out of the bowl.  Maybe that was a function of the "S" hook, and maybe the screw type hook fixes the problem, maybe not.  Maybe that wouldn't happen with a Globe, but I wouldn't bet on it.

My limited experience with 12qt mixers is they have an even harder time with thinks like small amounts of egg whites and cream than with single loaf dough batches; but they don't do that well either.  Furthermore, the machines are way to be big and heavy to be residential kitchen friendly; they pretty much need a dedicated stand or at least their own, permanent corner.  I know you're a professional baker, but still...

Everything I've heard from you about your needs (forgive me, I can't help myself), and from serious bakers who've had experience with either or both, makes me think that one of the up-from-beneath belt-drive machines like the Electrolux and Bosch are a better choice for your home kitchen and your baking than any of the down-from-above gear-drive machines. 

I've tried the previous generation Bosch and liked it a heap.  The new gen are supposed to be better.  They're in the same price ballpark as the big KAs and big Cuisinarts.   

The Electrolux is said to be particularly good with breads once you get the hang of it, and very stable to boot.  I've only watched them demoed though, never used one to bake my own bread.  Speaking of demos, think of it as the VitaMix of home mixers, and that should give you some perspective.

Considering that you already have a few attachments and your old machine is repairable, getting it and you back together seems the obvious first choice.  If things don't work out between the two of you, you can buy a new machine later when the attachments are old enough to handle the trauma. 

BDL 

Hi BDL

The problem with electrolux and the genre of mixers it represents is they don't seem as though they'd be able to mix the very wet focaccia dough using my preferred formula with a hydration of 110%. My understanding is the above species are strictly dough dough machines. I am probably wrong but that's been my approach.

OK so TENTATIVELY I've settled on a 10 quart mixer manufactured by General -- the GEM-110. It is heavy @ 160+ but a stainless steel roll-about table will be fine in addressing the size issue. I have a place to stash it when not in use. Furthermore my kitchen area and adjacent floor space are all tile floors so rolling in and out should be fine. I found this priced at less than $800 from one site and at just a bit under $1000 from others. It has a #12 taper hub so any marketed attachment of this design will work fine. The sites priced at close to a grand include free shipping. I have to get a quote from the lower priced distributor that includes shipping.

As a preemptive move here please I am aware of the pros and the cons of imported machines. Any debate here will pale by comparison to the ones that continually proliferate on the Machinist forums I belong to. I feel comfortable with the advertised quality of this machine. There still may be problems with the kind and size of mixer it is. However if you can see something in principle that is comment worthy I would really like any suggestion that you have. I don't think it is reasonable to intimate that it must be a piece of junk cause of the price and it's import manufacture. Now I could be wrong yes? I spent a long time searching for some kind of negative commentary and couldn't locate it. Furthermore, they have a base here in the states that serves their distributors and clients.

Take a look at this machine and tell me what you think:

Try Googling select appliances and look at their mixers. I think this shows up in both kitchen and restaurant.

Hopefully You folks will share your honest opinions and I'll be able to move to buying the beginning of next week.

thanks again for everyone's comments and insights.

Best,

Jon Mettrick
 

 

[gtm2013]

Thank you for starting a very useful thread and for all who have contributed such useful information. Please bear with yet another question.

I have seen a machine with reciprocating arms in dough kneaders/mixers, e.g.


min 2:23-3:12

Could any expert here clue me in to the nature of these kneaders and the manufacturers/vendors in the USA?

Many Thanks in advance.

G.