Need help with Puff Pastry Cream Horn shell.

Discussion in 'Pastries & Baking' started by azfireball56, Feb 12, 2017.

  1. azfireball56

    azfireball56

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    I am using the following recipe to make some cone shaped Cream Horns but have some problems.

    Puff Pastry Ingredients

    2 ⅓ cups (11 ½ oz/ 350g) plain flour

    14 tablespoons (7 oz/210g) (butter, frozen over night)

    Pinch salt

    8-10 tablespoons chilled water

    1 tablespoon lemon juice

    I put all the ingredients, cutting board and metal bowls in the freezer to get them cold.

    Grate the butter into the flour and mix well by hand, pressing the cold butter into the flour using a fork.

    Add cold water, salt, juice and mix to make a dough.

    Make a ball, wrap with plastic and refrigerate at 38 degrees F. overnight.

    Preheat oven to 425 F.

    Roll out under parchment paper, fold in thirds and roll again, fold in thirds , wrap in plastic and refrigerate 2 hours to rest. Do this two more times.

    Roll out on cold board to less than 1/8 inch thick. . I don’t have marble.

    Cut into 1/2 inch wide strips with pizza cutter.

    Brush egg wash on one edge of each strip and roll it onto a buttered mandrel (see image), overlapping the egg washed edge slightly onto the strip below. Stand these loaded mandrels up-right on a baking sheet and

    bake at 425 F. for 10 minutes then at 325 F. until brown, (about 20 min.)  

    During the first part of the bake cycle the strips slide down the mandrel and break apart when all that butter starts to ooze out of the dough. The butter runs/drips down onto the baking sheet and puddles all around the mandrel bases. The results are as can be seen in the attached images. If I lay them down, I get an over-cooked flat surface on the side laying on the baking sheet, swimming in melted butter.

    I would like them to be uniform in shape, light, thin and flaky with a slight crunch.

    Any ideas on how to fix these?

    BTW- I do plan on filling them with some type of cream filling...... Once I get the shells right.




     
  2. phatch

    phatch Moderator Staff Member

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    Freeze them, then bake from frozen. This helps prevent pie dough from slumping in the pan
     
  3. azfireball56

    azfireball56

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    Thanks. I 'll give this a try.
     
  4. azfireball56

    azfireball56

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    After numerous experiments I think I have solved the puzzle of making cone shaped cream horn shells.

    I was able to achieve the results shown below by reducing the amount of butter used in the dough (1/2 as much) and not buttering the mandrel before applying the strips of dough, along with becoming more skilled at winding the strips of dough onto the mandrel, without damaging them by starting at the small end and winding them toward the large end.

    Now to fill them with the right cream filling.

    .
     
  5. iluvpeasantmeal

    iluvpeasantmeal

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    Question, can you offer your pastry cream filling?  My wife used to frequent Ohio, visiting relatives, and we would make a day trip to Keims Amish farm, and pickup cream horns. The pastry cream filling was not egg-based (yellow like Boston cream), but was white fluffy and really to die for.....Is your recipe similar to this?

    Thanks!
     
  6. azfireball56

    azfireball56

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    I have used several but all are egg based.

    Here is a simple one we like.

    Ingredients

    1 1/2 cups whole milk, cream, or half-and-half

    4 large egg yolks

    1/3 cup sugar

    pinch salt

    1 teaspoon vanilla (add drop of Rum, Almond  or Coconut flavoring if desired)

    Warm the milk/cream to about 100 degrees.

    Wisk egg yokes with sugar, salt and flavoring until pale.

    Pour warm milk/cream  into eggs while stirring.

    Heat slowly while stirring constantly in sauce pan over water bath until thick.

    Heat to about 170 F. (The longer it’s cooked, the stuffer it will be.)

    Cool over ice bath or in refrigerator and spoon into shells.

    Decorate with chocolate, sprinkles and/or Powdered sugar.

    Serve right away as filled shells will soften if allowed to stand very long.

    I would like to find a non-cooked filling that will not soften the shells.

    Maybe one based on whipping cream or egg whites. 
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  7. norcalbaker59

    norcalbaker59 Banned

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    This is what's called a rough puff pastry, which is essentially a pie dough that's folded and rolled to create layers, as opposed to layers created by laminating fat between dough.

    The leaking butter is caused in part by over-heating the butter during the rolling and folding process. When baked, some will leak out; what doesn't leak creates that undesirable bread like texture, rather than puffed layers. Essentially, you want to embed flour onto butter flakes. So grated butter isn't the best approach unless you are going to use a butter block method.

    I would recommend you cube the butter, toss it in flour, then use the heel of your hand to flatten the cubes. Then use a rolling pin and roll over butter and flour. Butter will become long flakes. Use a bench scraper to cut the flakes. Repeat the rolling and cutting a couple of times until there's very little loose flour. You want to see butter flakes, not a coarse meal like texture. After the butter is flaked into the flour, proceed with adding water.

    A butter that stays pliable when very chilled works best when you are in the learning stages. A butter that is rock hard when cold not only makes rolling impossible, but you end up warming it up too much as you struggle to roll it. You also end up developing too much gluten since you have to work the dough so much.

    Try a pliable butter like Kerrygold Irish butter. Trader Joe's has the best price on Kerrygold.

    The other important aspect is rolling, not stretching. If you run a rolling pin over dough that is stuck to the counter, you stretch and tear the layers you are trying to create with the folding. Stretched dough is another cause of leaking butter. It will also make the dough tough.

    To prevent stretching, do not apply a lot of pressure on the dough. Just enough to flatten and elongate it. Rotate the dough with each pass of the rolling pin to ensure its not stuck to the counter. It's tedious, but after some practice, you'll roll a dough out in half the time

    Observe your dough with each pass of the rolling pin. If the dough springs back after you roll over it, stop immediately, wrap it and chill it. A dough that springs back is developing too much gluten; if you keep rolling you will be stretching the dough and developing way too much gluten. If you let the dough rest for 30 minutes or so, the gluten will relax. And you can continue rolling
     
  8. rpooley

    rpooley

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  9. azfireball56

    azfireball56

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    Looks like Jacques does it without all that tedious chilling and resting!

    Just flour, water and butter.

    I’ll give this a try.

    Thanks!
     
  10. azfireball56

    azfireball56

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    Norcalbaker59:

    Thank you for the very detailed write-up for making Puff Pastry.

    This explains a lot about what is going on during the whole process.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  11. rpooley

    rpooley

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    They edit out some of the chilling and resting.  Sorry.  Puff pastry takes time.  :)
     
  12. norcalbaker59

    norcalbaker59 Banned

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    This is actually a real puff pastry, as opposed to the rough puff pastry that you made. Nothing wrong with rough puff pastry, it's just doesn't have the layers and lightness of actual puff pastry.


    They edited out all the turns & resting. The 6 dots that were in the dough indicate the dough was turned and rested 6 times. After each turn, you use your fingertips to press the number of dots into the dough to correspond with the turn. It's an easy way to keep track of your turns and rests.

    Notice how he never let the dough stick to the counter. That is so key to properly rolling any dough--whether puff pastry or cinnamon rolls.

    There's a website called Weekend Bakery that has a very good tutorial on croissants. Puff pastry and croissants are the same except one has yeast, the other does not. That website offers good instructions on the whole laminating process if ever you want to review detailed instructions on laminated dough. I used there croissant recipe over the holidays.
     
  13. azfireball56

    azfireball56

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    Norcalbaker59:

    I can understand not showing the resting periods on the video but,

    it should have, at least, been mentioned.

    However, notice how soft the butter is when he puts it into the dough and

    how soft and pliable the dough is during every step in the rolling and folding process.

    It never looks cold or stiff.

    If cooling and resting are truly necessary steps in making adequate

    Puff Pastry, leaving them out of the video is like lying!

    Shame on them and on Jacques for allowing it to remain on the site!

    Thanks for pointing this discrepancy out to us and directing our attention to Weekend Bakery website.
     
  14. rpooley

    rpooley

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    I have learned that it is important for the butter to be cold/cool but also that the dough and the butter have to be somewhat of the same consistency, otherwise the rolling doesn't work out for me.  I think his butter is probably cold but slightly malleable.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
  15. norcalbaker59

    norcalbaker59 Banned

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    I agree they should have mentioned the turns and rests...it's the every essence of making laminated dough.

    Yes Jacques' butter is pliable, indicating it's not ice cold. Unlike pie dough, laminated dough does not use ice cold butter as the butter has to be pliable for lamination. The recipe you are using is a faux puff pastry--a pie dough that's folded, not laminated. So it calls for ice cold butter. But actual puff pastry requires butter that's chilled, but at the pliable stage. That's why I suggest Kerrygold; its pliable even when cold. Because you can bend it while it's cold, it buys you a bit of extra time to get the dough rolled and turned before the butter gets to that dangerous melting temperature. As your skill and experience develop, you will work with such efficiency that you'll be able to use butter warm enough to bend.

    Jacques sliced the butter and laid the slices on the dough as he worked. Usually the day before I make a laminated dough, I will slice the butter, lay it out on plastic wrap in the size I need, wrap it tight, then use the rolling pin to press it into a single block. When I'm ready to use it, I let it sit on the counter for about ten minutes. Since it a uniform thickness, the entire block of butter is pretty much the same temperature.
     
  16. rpooley

    rpooley

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    I don't know why more people don't mention beating the butter or performing a kind of "fraisage" with the heel of the hand to get the butter cold and malleable.  Works fine for me.
     
  17. norcalbaker59

    norcalbaker59 Banned

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    My use of a rolling pin to embed the butter into dough is based on fraisage. But fraisage is time consuming when you are making a large batch of dough. That's why I use a rolling pin. Same effect, just faster.

    For laminated dough like a real puff pastry, you can't use fraisage because you need separate and distinct layers of dough and fat. Instead of embed flour into the fat, you wrap the dough around the fat. Or in inverted pastry, you wrap the fat around the dough

    Beating the butter will heat it up with friction. Once butter is warm, it's easy to beat in air bubbles. When the butter melts, the bubbles will collapse--collapsing the dough in the process.
     
  18. rpooley

    rpooley

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    I put fraisage in quotes to designate that it is not the classic meaning but rather the motion/technique for softening the butter but not incorporating it. It always works well for me when making home size batches of anything that requires softened but cold butter.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
  19. norcalbaker59

    norcalbaker59 Banned

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    I know question was for the poster, but I thought I'd respond.


    If the horns weren't refrigerated, it would have been a shortening based filling.
    Personally, I do not make shortening fillings and icing. I won't stick a spoon in shortening and eat it, so I do not think its right to make a shortening based icing to serve to others.

    I can however offer a few suggestions for fillings:

    Chantilly Cream, just freshly made sweeten whipped cream. But it's fragile, and must be served and eaten right away.

    Pudding based filling (simple to make, this version has cool whip, so it can sit out longer than a dairy based filling, but you dont want to leave it on the counter)
    http://www.amish365.com/creme-horns-or-are-they-cream-horns/

    Creme chiboust, a pastry cream lightened with either egg whites, Italian meringue buttercream, or whipped cream
    http://joepastry.com/2011/making-chiboust/

    Italian meringue buttercream (boiled sugar frosting that is delicious, stable, a dream to pipe, a dream to eat!)
    http://americanheritagecooking.com/2015/04/italian-meringue-buttercream-tutorial/

    Ermine frosting (this is a very soft boiled flour frosting traditionally used on red velvet cake)
    https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/1016330-ermine-icing

    When I make eclairs or cream puffs, I use either a pudding filling or whipped cream. I fill just before serving.
     
  20. azfireball56

    azfireball56

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    Norcalbaker59:

    Thank you for the suggestions for fillings.

    I also dislike shortening based fillings.

    For these cone shaped Cream Horns, I find the filling needs to have some body.

    The lighter (Whipped cream or egg white type) fillings just do not seem to go well with these flaky shell horns (IMO).

    The texture and weight of pudding or custard  based fillings seem to me to be more suited for this type cream horn.

    I also agree they should be filled just prior to serving, as setting too long after filling will render them soft and less palatable.

    Also, thank you very much for providing the links to some awesome web sites showing some fabulous fillings!
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017