Need 3 New Knives and accompanying stones (preferrably with an angle guide) for Carving Chicken and

Discussion in 'Cooking Knife Reviews' started by thecarver, Jul 24, 2016.

  1. thecarver

    thecarver Banned

    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Owner/Operator
    So in my previous thread found here: http://www.cheftalk.com/t/89979/teach-a-young-man-to-fish-or-in-this-case-sharpen

    We deduced that my current knives, 2 Dexter carving knives, 1 Wusthof carving knife, and 1 Dexter santoku knife were garbage because too much material had been taken off and the dimples had been reached:


    Dexter Russell V-lo Duo Edge Santoku Style Chefs Knife, 9 inch (v144-9GE)


    Wusthof Pro 28cm


    SG140-12GE Dexter Russell SofGrip 12" Duo-Edge Roast Slicer


    SG140-12GE Dexter Russell SofGrip 12" Duo-Edge Roast Slicer


    The Santoku knife was used as a chef's knife and the carving knives of course were used for shawarma: 


    LOCATION
    Canada

    KNIFE TYPE
    What type of knife are you interested in?

    Carving/shawarma Knife

    Are you right or left handed?
    Right handed.

    Are you interested in a Western handle  or Japanese handle?
    Does it matter?

    What length of knife (blade) are you interested in?
    9-12 inches

    Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no).

    Don't Know

    What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?

    For all knives and stones and accessories, maximum $1000CAD

    KNIFE USE:

    everyday use 
     

    Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
    professional

    What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for?

    Shawarma

    What knife, if any, are you replacing?

    See previous trash dimpled knives

    Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
    No really 

    What cutting motions do you primarily use?
    Check out the fella with the two shawarma cones.  Chef's knife i use the pinch grip, shawarma knives i use a seesaw motion

    What improvements do you want from your current knife?
    Sharpness no only out of the box  but in the future also ,I know i will  have to sharp it and take great care of it  and  i want knifes that i can keep for the next 10 years to come 

    Better aesthetics?
    Don't care

    KNIFE MAINTENANCE:

    Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board?

    Plastic

    Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)

    No, but i will learn.  I will not let anyone else touch these knives

    If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)

    Yes.

    Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
    Yes. 

    SELECTION (in no particular order)  

    Thank you guys, you have been a breath of fresh air
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
  2. millionsknives

    millionsknives

    Messages:
    2,472
    Likes Received:
    464
    Exp:
    Professional Caterer
    Okay you have a few decisions to make

    Carbon or stainless-  Since you are buying house knives for the staff to use I would say 100% go stainless.  Unlessss you want to train them on cleaning and keeping dry carbon slicer.  Slicing meat is one of the better tasks for carbon steel, it probably won't rust and it will build up patina fast..  Still I don't trust staff with a $250+ knife so I would go stainless.

    Length - On slicers longer is better.  Minimize sawing with a longer blade for better looking cuts and faster more efficient work too

    If I were you, I would get cimeters like this



    Or ya know if you have two or three people slicing scale up appropriately.  And you can have a spare one if you are behind on sharpening.  Technique wise the guys at my local shwarma place go for one long cut then go back for another cut.  Pointer grip,  you lock your elbow, and swing down from the shoulder one big motion.  You don't need to go the whole length of the meat roll each time, but the part you're cutting doesn't get sawed so much.

    They might be used to the straight shape then get this 

    Stones are actually trickier I don't know what's readily available in Canada.  General advice if you go this type of stainless you don't need super high grit finishing stones.  I keep victorinox boning knife around 2000 grit (japanese) which is a good amount of 'tooth' for ripping into protein.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
    rick alan and thecarver like this.
  3. brianshaw

    brianshaw

    Messages:
    3,131
    Likes Received:
    368
    Exp:
    Former Chef
    For schwarma I'd do like Millions recommends to get a few inexpensive scimitars and learn to sharpen them or (and don't laugh too loud) an old-fashioned electric knife or two.
     
  4. rick alan

    rick alan

    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    151
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    Unless there are commercial versions I'm unaware of electrics I don't think electrics hold up for very long.  And you loose a lot of visual appeal with their use, at least I would balk at the sight.

    But as Chef Layne once pointed out they are the only way you can cut certain pastry items in half, I guess that comes in handy at times for some establishments.  Imagine some fragile torte that has a single large strawberry sitting on top on a glob of whipped cream.  And, of course, at avoiding fights at home when there is only one of those left.  ;-)~
     
  5. thecarver

    thecarver Banned

    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Owner/Operator
    I have some questions:

    1.  What is the advantage of Carbon Steel?

       a.  What is the advantage of a patina

       b.  Why is it so hard to train employees to keep it dry and clean

    2.  Why not suggest any Japanese knives like we discussed in the previous thread to this?

    3.  Is their a video or image which you can provide to illustrate the pointer grip?

    4.  What the disadvantages of SS compared to carbon steel

    5.  Is Brian serious about electric knives?
     
  6. thecarver

    thecarver Banned

    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Owner/Operator

    THing is, i have seen a alot of images on the net of shawarma places using something like this, but we don't make our shawarma cones, and in the chicken ONLY , their are small itty bitty bones that when i cut, i can feel if i hit one, with this knife, i would blast right through it
     
  7. foody518

    foody518

    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    44
    Exp:
    I Just Like Food
    Knifewear and Lee Valley should both stock stones and be good vendors for Canadian buyers.
     
  8. rick alan

    rick alan

    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    151
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    1.  Easiest to sharpen, and except for R2 no [readily available] stainless can get as sharp.

    a.  Patina comes with use, or you can force it in a number of ways. It's a carbon-based oxide of iron that inhibits ordinary rusting.

    b.  You would actually know the answer to that better than I.

    2.  Millions made very good initial suggestions there, not being really sure you actually wanted the expense of Japanese knives.  The Vics are very good bangforthebuck, they are nicely thin behind the edge, and tough, and you won't feel so bad at the help abusing them [which they very likely will].  For carving Shawarma they will hold an edge reasonably well.  We could talk about knives like the Kochi from JKI, and others.

    3.  Just imaginne you index finger lying on top of the spine.

    4.  See #1

    5.  Only he knows for sure.  I recall the one from my childhood was rather a slow cutter, though you may find some today that are better here.  I was actually involved in the design of one for a Ron Popeil/industrial designer kind of guy.  This one was no speedster either and certainly wasn't made to last, and intentionally so.  And I'll repeat, they just don't fit under the heading of "Cool," so far as my sensibilities go.

    For my personal knife here I'd go for a Takamura 270mm HSPS Pro Sujihki, or possibly even a Tanaka Ironwood (Damascus) for the bling, if I could find either one available.  And I certainly wouldn't let ordinary kitchen help use it.  If you have a small shop and if you can really trust your guys that "might" be a different story.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
  9. thecarver

    thecarver Banned

    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Owner/Operator
    http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kamo1.html

    Is that what you are talking about?

    And what do you think about the pic of the electric knife i posted and my predicament

    Furthermore:  I imagine the Tanaka R2 Pro Sujihki takes more time and effore for maintenance and cleanup and is not advised for a beginner such as myself
     
  10. brianshaw

    brianshaw

    Messages:
    3,131
    Likes Received:
    368
    Exp:
    Former Chef
    Yes I am serious. Unless you are serving to race car drivers during pit stops speed isn't that much of an issue. Reliability is worth considering though.

    And I'm with Rick, they aren't "cool" but they may be quite functional in that application... They were for us to a reasonable extent.

    My knowledge of reliability of old electric knifes was that the held up until they broke, and then they were throwaways. When I ran a quick service type joint that was a mix of American and MiddleEastern, a long time ago, we used them and they generally failed when some jackass put them in a sink full of water to wash them. I can't recall one wearing out but that seems like a very realistic possibility. They were/are rather inexpensive to buy and replace... But cheap knives were too!

    You need to clarify your intent: sell and serve schwarma or be a knife geek with a cool knife. Both is possible but not if you are providing knives to minimum wage employees. I'm all for being a knife geek, BTW, but more oriented toward preparing good food with whatever tool does the job.

    I'd have a chat with the chicken cone supplier about those bones!
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
  11. millionsknives

    millionsknives

    Messages:
    2,472
    Likes Received:
    464
    Exp:
    Professional Caterer
    My position is that house knives should be cheap and able to take abuse. You don't need to buy your employees a sports car, more like a 1980s pickup truck that keeps on running.

    Electric knives are bound by that annoying cord. I own one just for brisket because the bark is so tough. Not a problem on shwarma
     
  12. brianshaw

    brianshaw

    Messages:
    3,131
    Likes Received:
    368
    Exp:
    Former Chef
    Cordless, Millions!
     
  13. thecarver

    thecarver Banned

    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Owner/Operator
    we are used to a more straight edge but i don't see how that would be a big deal when comparing the slicer and cimeter
     
  14. brianshaw

    brianshaw

    Messages:
    3,131
    Likes Received:
    368
    Exp:
    Former Chef
    Alleviates the sharpening issue to a large degree. That's all really.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
  15. thecarver

    thecarver Banned

    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Owner/Operator
    Are you saying that a straighter edge is easier to sharpen?
     
  16. brianshaw

    brianshaw

    Messages:
    3,131
    Likes Received:
    368
    Exp:
    Former Chef
    I'm saying electric knive almost never needs sharpening unless blades are abused.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
  17. rick alan

    rick alan

    Messages:
    2,394
    Likes Received:
    151
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    The notion of an electric is not exclusive of professional insight, but just look at the two-fisted knife wielding Chef "The Carver" and ask yourself if he'd present the same with an electric in his right hand?  Oh but my eyes are hurting now!

    But I have to say that the rotary tool would present much better than the typical twin blade electric, and that one will probably hold up.
     
  18. brianshaw

    brianshaw

    Messages:
    3,131
    Likes Received:
    368
    Exp:
    Former Chef
    More professional... No doubt. The price seem to run $100 to $500. Didn't look at the difference between these offerings though. I suppose it depends on budget. The schwarma isn't likely to taste and better cut with expensive knives than it would cut with bargain knives. As long as the food/service quality is high and the knife is sharp enough to cut.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2016
  19. Iceman

    Iceman

    Messages:
    2,486
    Likes Received:
    422
    Exp:
    Professional Chef
    Since about the last 8-10 years, I haven't been a gyro place that wasn't using electric knives. Isn't shawarma cutting generally the same thing? Outside of a handful of knife-geeks, nobody in the rest of the world has any care for the coolness/uncoolness of anyone using big fancy knives or electric knives.

    ? 1b) It's hard to train employees proper knife care because they are employees. They don't care if something you bought with your money gets wrecked. Sorry ... but that's life. Nobody cares if it's not out of their pocket.

    ? 2) You don't buy expensive high quality stuff for your employees to wreck. You buy employees industrial "Timex" type stuff ... takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. Knife-geeks like expensive high quality stuff because it's cool, and since they paid with their own money ... they take care of it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2016
  20. thecarver

    thecarver Banned

    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Owner/Operator
    Millions posted two links to Amazon, one for a cimeter and one for a slicer, which would be easier to sharpen using sharpening stones?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2016