Matching a Knife to a Sharpener. Trisor XV, what quality of knife?

Discussion in 'Cooking Knife Reviews' started by Surfer, Aug 10, 2018.

  1. Better than Tojiro Dp

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  2. Lesser than Tojiro DP

    50.0%
  3. Get the Tojiro DP

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Surfer

    Surfer

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    I’ve settled on a sharpening system now to pick a knife. I just cook at home and have no commercial experience.

    Chefs Choice Trisor XV
    Cheap end grain cutting board - Acacia wood
    Magnetic knife holder for storage
    Hand wash and put away

    I understand this sharpener will limit the sharpness achieved to less than someone experienced with stones or even a novice with an Edge Pro. I believe this sharpener will get knives up to a decent factory new sharpness. Maybe just enough to pass the paper test. That’s sharp enough for me and the time savings is well worth it to me.

    So now on to the knife question. I understand high end knives will not reach their sharpness potential using a Trisor XV. I have heard it is a pity for a $150 knife to only be sharp enough to shave with. So what level of knife benefits most from this sharpener? Would a VG-10 blade stay sharp significantly longer than a cheap knife? If so does this justify the more expensive knife even though it wont reach its sharpness potential.

    Tojiro DP is where I'm leaning. I could easily save a little money and go with a cheaper knife if its benefits wont be seen with a Trisor XV sharpener.

    If you knew this was the only sharpener you were going to use what knife would you buy to go with it?
     
  2. phatch

    phatch Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't recall for sure but isn't the Tojiro assymetric at the edge?

    If so that would not be maintained by the chefs choice system.
     
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  3. sgsvirgil

    sgsvirgil

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    The real question here is how often do you sharpen your knives?
     
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  4. brianshaw

    brianshaw

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    ... and another real question is how sharp must a knife really be to effectively cut food?

    I've generally chosen a sharpening scheme based on the knife, not vice versa.
     
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  5. benuser

    benuser

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    Sharpening is not so much about putting an edge at the end of a piece of steel. It is restoring a previous configuration in another place. The new edge has in fact slightly moved in the direction of the spine, where the blade is thicker.
    Have a look at the cross-section geometry of a blade. Spine some 2-3mm thick. Edge a few microns. In between, just above the edge, expect 0.2mm. At 5mm from there, a thickness of 0.5mm. At 10mm one of 1mm.
    Proper sharpening should involve thinning behind the edge, otherwise performance will rapidly decrease.

    Another problem that will raise is in deburring. VG-10 is probably the steel that requires the most time for careful abrading the burr, stone after stone. No short-cut here, or it leaves a heavily damaged edge behind.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  6. rick alan

    rick alan

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    The Chef's choice will sharpen asymetrical knives, it's just that the edge itself will become 50/50.

    I have no Idea how well they work on VG-10, though regardless of steel the edge will be no where near shaving sharp. Then there is the rapidly thickening edge you'll get with this power sharpener.

    Millions recommended the Ken Onion Work Sharp over the trizor-type sharpeners, it's cheaper also, I don't know that one would work any better/worse on VG-10.

    How do you feel about carbon rather than stainless? Carbon will work better here, and with the Ken Onion you would get a half decent edge.

    The well known chef Ming Tsai typically recommends throw-away serrated knives for the home cook, and even uses them himself. I'd say the results here will be better on the whole than your trizor sharped knives.

    Acacia wood sucks for boards, it's full of silica, these cheap end-grain boards also typically fall apart within a year. Better a good oak edge-grain board for the same money or less. Use poly boards if going serrated, to avoid saw dust.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2018
  7. benuser

    benuser

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    ... which leads to very serious steering and/or wedging issues after a few sharpenings.
     
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  8. Pat Pat

    Pat Pat

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    You don't give it enough credit. This is an amazing sharpener once you've mastered the techniques.

    Coupled with a razor strop, you can get an amazingly keen edge on your knife in less than half the time it takes on the stones.

    I have the Work Sharp and it's quite painful to use, in that it takes forever to sharpen your knives; much longer than using stones.

    The Chef’sChoice works wonderfully on VG-10 and any other steels; save for the powdered steels, which I have yet to try.

    The key to using it, like every sharpening method, is practice. Following the included instructions will only give you a workable edge.

    With experience, you will be able to refine your techniques to the point where you can achieve amazing sharpness with the Chef’sChoice.
     
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  9. benuser

    benuser

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    And how about deburring, edge thickening, geometry?
     
  10. Pat Pat

    Pat Pat

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    I do them the traditional way on the stones.

    However, those corrections are of no concern to the home users though. I find that they rarely ever get to the point that requires them to do those stuff.
     
  11. benuser

    benuser

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    Expect the thickening and steering/wedging issues to appear after a few sharpenings.
     
  12. rick alan

    rick alan

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    So lets say that with VG-10 you do not deburr on the stones, what kind of edge are you left with then?
     
  13. benuser

    benuser

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    A wire edge that will serve you until it comes into contact with the board. Then it breaks off, taking with it a part of the edge. And a new full sharpening can take place.
     
  14. phatch

    phatch Moderator Staff Member

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    Looks like the DP comes 50/50 if that's your taste.

    I think for the most part youd be satisfied with that set up. I don't see you needing to thin behind the edge as fast as benuser
    as I think he has highly refined sense of the cut that appears to matter less to you.

    A few years out, then you'd probably like some thinning.
     
  15. Surfer

    Surfer

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    Thank you all for the responses and thanks for the vote Pat. Nice to hear from someone who has used the XV and a variety of other sharpeners to compare.

    I have the work sharps pre-Ken Onion edition. I can use it to thin behind the edge when that time eventually comes. Even with this sharpener I quit sharpening my knives. To many other things going on in my life to set up, change belts 3 times, and put away. 20 minutes. The belts being color coded didn't help either as I am color challenged. I could barley pass the paper test, but that is sharp enough for me.

    Pat - You mention technique with the XV, I’m imaging the mechanical grind is highly dependent on pressure and speed of the pull. Is lighter pressure and steady pull the most critical finishing maneuvers? Is there a common pitfall that keeps knives at only a “workable edge” vs sharper.

    Benuser - About the broken burr and wire edge. How much of a dulling effect does this have? If Pat is achieving decent results with the XV and VG-10 could it be that these two complications with this sharpener don’t make the edge less than factory sharp. And is there another metal you would trust to get better results with this machine?

    Rick –My cutting board is 6-year-old and cost $17 new. Is acacia really that bad considering I’m only sharpening to factory sharp. Wife would not go for carbon and I don’t want more knives than needed. It would be unnecessary clutter. Semi stainless will do. Throw away knives? I’ll pass.
     
  16. benuser

    benuser

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    Given the burr problems you are likely to encounter with VG-10, I would rather choose a finely grained steel type like a simple carbon steel, or AEB-L if it has to be a stainless one.
     
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  17. Pat Pat

    Pat Pat

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    It's hard to say, my techniques change and evolve with time. But basically, it's about varying the lateral angle and the pitch of your knives when you pull them through, as well as the pull speed and how deep you put your knives in the slot.

    Mind you, I've been using Chef’sChoice sharpeners for almost 20 years, so I mostly sharpen by the sound and the vibration it makes.

    The common pitfall I'd say is pulling your knife through too fast in the beginning and not pulling fast enough during the finishing moves. Also, putting your knife too deep down in the slot and it will cut through the plastic housing as it exits the grinding wheel dulling your freshly sharpened edge in the process.

    As for the deburring concern, I forgot to mention that I also use the technique I learned from Murray Carter of drawing the knife across the corner of a cardboard box. This works wonders.
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018
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  18. rick alan

    rick alan

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    Handle the board situation anyway you like for the moment, but next board no acacia. teak or bamboo. Get an approved wood like oak, maple, walnut, cherry, the cypress boards Japan uses, or a HighSoft rubber board.

    A 5 or $10 serrated would likely last you a long time, try one and for cutting the small or soft stuff see how it compares to whatever knife your pulling through the CC. You might prefer it for tomatoes and such, and you can restore them a number of times with a ceramic steel by stropping the flat side at a very shallow angle.
     
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  19. Surfer

    Surfer

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    Quick update. Please remember I am a novice home cook so take all with a grain of salt.

    1- For any other home cooks or non-professionals, if you already have some cheap knives and don’t have a sharpener yet, get a sharpener before you upgrade your knives. The benefit is multifold. You learn on knives that wont mater if you scratch them, and you breathe new life and pleasure into your existing knives without the expense of new knives.

    2 – The level of sharpness I can achieve with the Trizor VX is not as sharp as the Tojiro DP factory sharp. I can take a dull knife and just barely get it to hair shaving sharp in 5 minutes. With more practice I’m sure I can improve upon this. This is plenty sharp for me and sharper than my wife wanted.

    3 – It dawned on me a major difference between the professional and the home cook (myself). A pro may do 50 lbs of Onions in a day. I might do 1 lb in a week. Extrapolating out and assuming other tasks, this is 250 times more abuse on a knife. Our sharpening cycles are going to be very different. In the 4 months since this thread started I have not re-sharpened my knives and my friends are still scared of them.

    4- The VG10 (Tojiro DP) is easier to sharpen than the very soft 4043 (Kiwi). The 4043 created a bur on the opposite side with each pass. With the VG10, I have no idea if I am breaking the burr off or grinding it down properly, but the result is sharp enough for me. Just barley sharp enough to shave with. Most other cheap knives were easy to sharpen as well but I don’t know the metal. Example Hoffritz

    5 – The biggest benefit of the Trizor VX – my wife puts my good knives in the sink, and occasional other abuses. I no longer get upset because it is so easy to re-sharpen. We get along better. Cheap solution to prevent unnecessary negative emotions.

    Thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread and everyone who contributed to this site in general. I have learned so much form your experiences.

    Sincerely,

    Tanner
     
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  20. rick alan

    rick alan

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    Nice to hear back from you Surfer, glad things worked out well.