Masamoto HC or K sabatier?

Discussion in 'Cooking Knife Reviews' started by sirknifealot, Feb 15, 2018.

  1. sirknifealot

    sirknifealot

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exp:
    amateur
    Hi

    This is my first post, but I have been reading along for a couple of month now. What an awesome forum! So much info for a newbees like me. Learning a lot from all of you guys! Thank you :)

    I´m looking for a new (smaller) chefknife and have some questions on this matter.
    After reading everything I could find on this forum I have narrowed the choice down to either a masamoto HC 210 mm or a K Sabatier 200 mm. I really like the profile of those knives, and from what I have been reading both get a lot of praises. I haven’t been able to find any measurement of how wide the K sabs are. Does anyone know? :)
    I don’t have any local retailers selling either knife, so I can’t try any of them out before buying.

    So my main question is: which knife will get me the best performance? :)

    I sharpen my knives on an edge pro apex. I’m new to it, but getting some pretty good edges.
    The amount of sharpening and honing the knives need dos not factor in on my choice, only how it performs in the kitchen.

    I am a little worried about the reactivness with food though. It’s my first carbon, so I have no experience with how that affects the food. I know I have to whipe doing use and clean and dry after use to protect the knife, which I have no problems with.

    However I do have a problem with off-flavors and miscoloring of the food. How much of a factor is this with these knives? They will be used for a lot of vegetables like onions, tomatos and such. From what I’ve read these knives aren’t that reactive, but again – no experience :)

    And a final question. How does the masamoto VG compare to the HC and K Sab in cutting performance? Being stainless it does lose some of the “awesome factor”, but on the other hand I have a little easier access to the knife here in Europe compared the HC. Not having the k sabs fingerguard makes sharpening a little easier, as I don’t have the tools to level the fingerguard with the knife edge as I sharpen.

    I’m not a chef and the knives will be used in a home kitchen :)

    Best regards
     
  2. benuser

    benuser

    Messages:
    1,788
    Likes Received:
    94
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Some very serious Fit& Finish issues have been reported about the Masamoto HC. Split scales, fat edges. In this forum as well as in others. So far we may conclude that QC is absent. Unacceptable, and certainly at this price level.
    K-Sabatier are good knives. F&F are rudimentary compared to what we're used to with the Japanese. Steel is good but very soft.
    Better have a look at the Misono Swedish Carbon and the Masahiro Virgin Carbon.
    Plenty info about both in kitchenknifeforums.com
    Use the Google site-function.
    Japanese knives are usually asymmetric.
    http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/33951-A-Basic-Explanation-of-Asymmetry
    Sharpening them with a jig-system is a bit problematic.
    http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/5656-Asymmetry-–-The-REAL-DEAL
     
  3. benuser

    benuser

    Messages:
    1,788
    Likes Received:
    94
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Once carbon steel blades have got a patina there's nothing to worry about. Forcing it may be helpful in the beginning. Carbons sharpen much easier than stainless.
     
  4. Jedicat94

    Jedicat94

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Exp:
    Homer cook
    I'm sorry if this knife falls into entirely wrong category, and if that's the case just ignore this post completely. But Masamoto KS seems to be available at http://www.knivesandstones.com

    Just thought if that's been left out of options because of poor availability. It seems to get quite high praises performance wise.
     
  5. sirknifealot

    sirknifealot

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exp:
    amateur
    I think I read somewhere that the masamoto QC problems where a thing of the past. More or less anyway :) but I could be wrong. I´ll look in to that, but thanks for bringing it to my attention :) does anyone have any experience with them within the last couple of years?

    Regarding the K-Sabatier QC: people seem to have mixed feelings about them. How much an issue have people had with them? I plan to reprofile it to 15*if I choose that one, so the OOTB sharpness isn’t really important.
    The misonos seems to be very popular indeed, but for whatever reason I’m not really in to those. But then again, if they really are that great I might have to check them out again. But people also seem to say they are very reactive. Is that at problem? Or am I misunderstanding something?

    About the symmetry: that might be quite an issue for me. I did know most Japanese knives where asymmetrical, but I actually thought I could sharpen at the same angle on both sides on the apex or maybe even reprofile to af 50/50. But after reading the post you linked to it seems to be out of the question.
    If that is so I guess a lot of Japanese knives are out of the question for me … (hallo Hattori FH)
    But great news with the non-issue regarding the carbon vs food!

    Yea, those masamoto KS are indeed very cool looking knives! Thank you, I will look in to those. But they do also seem to be somewhat more pricy than the others ;) oh well. I guess you got a budget till you get a new one.. this knife thing really is a slippery slope :)
     
  6. benuser

    benuser

    Messages:
    1,788
    Likes Received:
    94
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Check
    site:cheftalk.com "Masamoto HC"

    and you get an idea.

    The HC got a lot of interest here. Had all to do with BDL's reports, but his one must have been from fifteen years ago or so.

    Please be aware it is quite asymmetric as well.
     
  7. Jedicat94

    Jedicat94

    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    1
    Exp:
    Homer cook
    And the rabbithole goes deeper..

    Wasn't aware of this stuff until reading these threads above. Are there brands which are relatively asymmetrically free, so persons with not-so-great freehand sharpening skills can buy a nice piece of Japanese cutlery without having to be affraid of ruining it in first sharpening?
     
  8. benuser

    benuser

    Messages:
    1,788
    Likes Received:
    94
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Sharpening by hand an asymmetric edge isn't harder than sharpening a symmetric one. It's the same procedure. Schematically:
    You start behind the edge on one side and only little by little raise the spine, until you got a burr.
    That's the moment you start at the other side and do the same.
    You may simply ignore symmetry, asymmetry, proportions, angles, as long you want to duplicate a former edge.
    Only if you insist on using a jig system things get a bit unpleasant.
     
  9. benuser

    benuser

    Messages:
    1,788
    Likes Received:
    94
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Ruining a knife by sharpening, i.e. damaging beyond repair, isn't really simple. You need a lot of time, a very coarse stone and a well-developped unconsciousness to get there. Once you've got the basics about sharpening there isn't much that can go very wrong. Most problems you will encounter are well known and get easily fixed. There's plenty of excellent information available and you won't have to find all out by yourself. No, hand sharpening is not beyond your abilities.
     
    brianshaw likes this.
  10. sirknifealot

    sirknifealot

    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exp:
    amateur
    Ok thank you, I guess I’l stick with 50/50 bevel knives then. And skip the masamoto. Don't see any reason to take the chance when there are so many other great knives around :)

    After some more research I think it’s down to the K Sabatier or the Mac Pro MBK 85. I really like the profile of the K Sabatier and the MBK seems pretty close.

    Would any of these be good choices? From what I know both have great handles and a good profile. I do realize its carbon vs stainless :)
     
  11. benuser

    benuser

    Messages:
    1,788
    Likes Received:
    94
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    Beginning 20th century, German makers used to follow the Sab profile. Tip is lower than with most modern French ones.
    Robert Herder, Solingen, 1923 series. 23cm chef's. C75W carbon steel, 60Rc.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2018
  12. benuser

    benuser

    Messages:
    1,788
    Likes Received:
    94
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    [​IMG]
     
  13. aliphares

    aliphares

    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    14
    Exp:
    Home cook
    I'm moving to the Netherlands soon! So as someone living there, do you mind if I ask you about the knife situation there? I know about knives and tools and JCK delivers easily, but do you have to pay taxes or something? Also are physical stores easy to come by?
     
  14. benuser

    benuser

    Messages:
    1,788
    Likes Received:
    94
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    When you're interested in anything from within the EU, better buy it when you're abroad. You don't pay our VAT.
    Once you're in the EU, you pay of course the full price with VAT. For imported articles as well. Plus import tax 8.5 per cent for Japanese knives above a certain value. And handling costs.
    When getting stuff by JCK you may have luck, ...or not.
    Where do you live now?
     
    aliphares likes this.
  15. benuser

    benuser

    Messages:
    1,788
    Likes Received:
    94
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    As for local shops: standard Zwilling, Wüsthof, Global, Shun.The usual stuff. One shop selling Misono, but you better have it with JCK.
     
  16. aliphares

    aliphares

    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    14
    Exp:
    Home cook
    The problem (for me at least) was never about finding the masamoto KS (although it seems it's slowly surfacing more easily once again)
    It's that imo, although it's a fantastic knife, it's pretty overpriced, and you can get knives that perform as good and cost a less. The link is BDL's personal blog, and he talks about some popular french and Japanese brands. Instead of copying the part about the K sab and HC, I'll just link it, maybe you'll find something else you like. Keep in mind that it is 8 years old. Some of these knives aren't available anymore, but it's still pretty accurate.

    http://www.cookfoodgood.com/?p=190
     
  17. aliphares

    aliphares

    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    14
    Exp:
    Home cook
    I live in Beirut, Lebanon. There simply aren't any knives stores at all. One sell stainless K-sabs, and that's it. The others only carry victorinox and tramotina knives. Nothing else available. I'm moving to continue my studies there, I'm a med student.
     
  18. aliphares

    aliphares

    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    14
    Exp:
    Home cook
    Which store? I'm considering a misono sweden as my next knife (ironically im torn between it and a masamoto hc)
     
  19. benuser

    benuser

    Messages:
    1,788
    Likes Received:
    94
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    I had Duikelman in Amsterdam in mind. After verification, there are more.
    http://misono.nl/VerkooppuntenMisono.html
    Misonos are strongly asymmetric as well, and come with a weak, overly convexed edge. No big deal really, but you better get rid of it as soon as possible. Put a narrow straight bevel at a high angle on the left side, and a convex bevel ending at a much lower angle on the right.
     
  20. benuser

    benuser

    Messages:
    1,788
    Likes Received:
    94
    Exp:
    Home Cook
    The Misono Swedish Carbon 210 is very narrow to my taste. For general purpose consider the 240 instead.