It came, it finally came!!!

Discussion in 'Cooking Knife Reviews' started by saabracer23, Jan 3, 2011.

  1. saabracer23

    saabracer23

    Messages:
    21
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    This knife is truly incredible! It's a konosuke hd 270mm gyuto. I'm coming from a cheap set of henkels and this is a whole new realm of sharp. Many thanks to all especially BDL for his advise. Jon from JKI was a true pleasure to buy from. I got the rosewood octagon handle and onyx buffalo horn, very beautiful. Very comfortable handle as well.



    Dan
     
    spikedog likes this.
  2. phaedrus

    phaedrus

    Messages:
    1,540
    Likes Received:
    118
    Exp:
    Professional Chef
    Nice!  I've been eyeballin' that one, too.  Or rather the same knife in a 240mm size.
     
  3. petalsandcoco

    petalsandcoco

    Messages:
    3,207
    Likes Received:
    155
    Exp:
    Private Chef
    My goodness that is a very nice knife.

    Petals.
     
  4. boar_d_laze

    boar_d_laze

    Messages:
    8,551
    Likes Received:
    193
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    So glad you're happy.  I hope you love yours as much as I do mine.

    Enjoy it in the best of health,

    BDL
     
    spikedog likes this.
  5. wyandotte

    wyandotte

    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    At home cook
    Holy cow.  If I  chopped that fast, I would have a stump where my left hand should be.

    !

    On the off chance I get rich and can buy a knife like this, how would I keep it sharp?  To us amateurs, some of us anyway, sharpening of knives is a mysterious undertaking, a rarefied discipline, with different advice from various parties.  That is why I buy cheap wavy-edged knives, which do very well - for a short while.  Then on to the next one.
     
  6. petalsandcoco

    petalsandcoco

    Messages:
    3,207
    Likes Received:
    155
    Exp:
    Private Chef
    I watched that video twice. He is cutting the onion with his left hand and using the knife making horizontal slits directly (or what  looks like) directly  in front of his right palm.

    Is this technique right ? I am glad he can peel & cut  an onion in 60 seconds but there is just something wrong here in my eyes. Am I wrong ?

    Petals.
     
  7. linny29

    linny29

    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Professional Chef
    Very sweet knife, I love it! I watched the video through the cracks in between my fingers ... why is it so hard to watch someone else wield a knife but I have no fear with one in my hand, makes no sense! Maybe it's just me!
     
  8. boar_d_laze

    boar_d_laze

    Messages:
    8,551
    Likes Received:
    193
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    Posted by Wyandotte  
    There's nothing at all mysterious once you understand the process of raising a burr and deburring to create a fine, fresh metal edge.  Not all techniques and methods deal with the process with a straightforward process, but that's the way they all work.  The easiest way for most people to develop consistently good results is to learn a method which explicitly deals with the fundamentals of sharpening.  The techniques can always be altered later. 

    If you want to understand the process we can talk.  This is the progression:

    Coarse Stone (if necessary):
    • Profile, thin or repair.
    Medium/Coarse First Sharpening Stone:
    • Raise the burr;
    • Detect the burr;
    • Chase the burr;
    • Detect the burr;
    • Deburr if necessary.
    Medium Fine Second Sharpening and First Polishing Stone or Strop
    • Raise the burr;
    • Detect the burr;
    • Chase the burr;
    • Detect the burr; and
    • Deburr.
    Polishing Stone or Strop (if necessary)
    • Polish
    • Check for burr;
    • Chase the burr if necessary; and
    • Deburr if necessary; and if you had to chase and deburr
    • Polish gently.  
    You need either a good water stone kit, and/or a good strop kit, and/or a really good tool and jig like an Edge Pro.  (Note:  An EP has a much flatter learning curve than freehand sharpening on bench stones or strops.)  

    BDL
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
  9. lawrence

    lawrence

    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Former Chef
    You are not wrong.

    Actually this video contains one of my pet hates, which so many TV Chefs demonstrate to novices.

    it is a complete waste of time to make horizontal cuts, as well as dangerous, especially to students who we teach never to cut towards themselves! Thats why we have to have first aid kits!

    If you are one of those who do cut horizontally, please think about why.

    Imagine your half onion as a series of arches on top of each other, if you cut horizontally you cut each "arch" in almost exactly the same way as you do when you cut vertically which you all do afterwards.. I wish I had the time to produce a video to explain it better/img/vbsmilies/smilies/frown.gif  

    If you don't believe me, try it and see how much time you could save.
     
  10. wyandotte

    wyandotte

    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    At home cook
    Boar - thanks for your info.  But how do you detect the burr? God help me, I'm so lost.  On tee vee I see the chefs grabbing a knife sharpening steel rod, and slash/slash/slash! in midair, and next thing you know, the knife is supersharp (I guess) again and off they go. 

    About the horizontal cutting of the onion.   That seems to me to be showing off a bit, or to demonstrate that the knife is so awesome, that no downward pressure is required!  Hot damn!  I could barely watch this.
     
  11. petemccracken

    petemccracken

    Messages:
    3,401
    Likes Received:
    158
    Exp:
    Professional Chef
    With regards to the horizontal cuts, IMHO they are only needed for the bottom 1/4 to 1/3 of the onion where the layers are near vertical, for most onions only one to three cuts.

    Without the horizontal cuts, one will end up with a portion of the onion in julienne or batton pieces rather than cubes.
     
     
  12. indygal

    indygal

    Messages:
    270
    Likes Received:
    17
    Exp:
    At home cook
    I'm not a pro so I have no need of such a sharp knife.

    But I used to be a professional hair person.   I bit the bullet and gave $300 for a pair of Japanese shears (way back in the 80's) and they were like miraculous.   Hair moves in front of the cutting area with most shears, even good ones,   So you get a slant on most snips, but those Japanese ones cut it perfectly even, sliced right through and the hair did not travel in front of it.   So I was sold, and wound up with 2 pair of them.  Since you could take one snip where you always had to take 3 or 4 before, they were a huge time saver, and also improved the finished result.

    I guess the same shear is way over $1,000 now days.

    IMO, You just can't beat Japanese cutting implements.  The steel is superior and it takes and holds a much better edge.  The downside is that you have to find someone with the skill set to put a hollow ground edge on them without taking too much metal off.   On my shears, it was nothing you could do yourself.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2012
  13. petalsandcoco

    petalsandcoco

    Messages:
    3,207
    Likes Received:
    155
    Exp:
    Private Chef
    Pete: I agree 100% with you.
    Thank you Lawrence, I stand by what you said. Everyone has their own way of cutting, this is not the safest way at all. IMHO.
    You do not need to be a pro to have a sharp knife, everyone who owns a knife should keep them sharp.....Ann , if your reading this, for your anniversary I am getting you a new knife.
    My jaw dropped when I saw it .....

    Petals.
     
  14. boar_d_laze

    boar_d_laze

    Messages:
    8,551
    Likes Received:
    193
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    Posted by Wyandotte  
    V, Edge:

    Let's start by visualizing a perfect edge in the shape of a V.  Technically a "V" edge" is not the only kind of edge, there are also convex edges (arched), multi-bevels, and a couple of different chisel edges, but for the time being let's go with the V as representative and the most common. 

    There are two very different kinds of burr. 

    Y, The Burr which is also a Wire:

    The one which is hardest to feel is a "wire."  You might want to visualize a wire as the tail part of a Y.  Note that the tail is very thin, but extends straight down in the same direction as the edge should.  It's hard for some people to feel a wire (getting to that) because it's so easy to confuse with a true edge.   When people refer to an edge which is "too sharp" they usually mean a wire.  Because the wire is so thin it bends and "dulls" easily.  A bent wire is a burr.  It's undesirable during cooking but part of the inevitable process of true sharpening.  It should be broken off (or dissolved) as one of the last parts of sharpening so the edge looks like a V. 

    y, Bending and Deposit Burrs:

    The most common burr, the burr you'll learn to create and remove during sharpening and to straighten as necessary during cooking is either formed during sharpening or during use.   Visualize it as a y.  This burr can be caused by bending (in use or on the stones) or by deposit (during sharpening). The mechanics of forming a bending burr will be obvious, but are mysterious when it comes to deposit burrs.  For the time being, let's relegate them to the "trust me" bin.   

    You can see from the shape of the y burr that if you gently push your thumb along the face of the knife which the burr also faces, your thumbnail will catch in the "hook" of the burr.  Similarly, you can feel it if you push your thumb either off the edge or towards the knife.  The side of the burr facing the knife will feel "rougher" or more "aggressive." 

    Steeling the Burr Away:

    After sharpening and during use, edges get dinged out of shape and "out of true."  Those dings (which look like ripples along the edge) are also bending burrs.  They make a knife which is otherwise sharp (narrow, fine edge) act dull.  Dullness is the first sign of an edge which is out of true, and should be enough to tell you to take care of the problem.  (There are other tests for detecting "rippling," like the "glint" and "bic" tests but they're beyond the scope of this post.)

    One of the most common ways to return an edge to true is with a steel (aka rod hone).  The narrow contact patch between rod and knife puts a lot of pressure on the edge, and as the edge is drawn along the length of the steel

    Steeling should be done at the same angle as the edge bevels or only very slightly more obtuse; and should consist ALWAYS of only a few light strokes alternating sides between each stroke. 

    Five strokes per side is way too many and will quickly weaken the edge causing it to chip.  For what it's worth, almost every TV chef steels with too much pressure and uses too many strokes.  That weakens the edge and causing it to go out of true more easily in the future, and making it very likely to chip. 

    So called diamond steels or any other hone abrasive enough to actually sharpen create high and low spots along the edge bevel.  They're popular with people who don't understand knives very well because they're instant gratification.  However, they make for very coarse edges, and eat your knives to boot.  They should be avoided at all costs.  Honing rods should either be fine-grooved, fine ceramic, or polished.  If you're considering a new rod for your kit, we can talk.

    Creating a Burr Intentionally as a Part of Good Sharpening:

    There are lots of really good sharpening techniques.  All of them rely to some extent on creating and removing a burr; but one of the most popular methods -- which I call "the burr method" (but no one else does) -- is explicit in its methods of creating burrs, chasing them (weakening them by making them very thin and getting them to "flip" from side to side), and removing (aka "deburring") them.  It is, I think, the easiest way to understand the process of sharpening and the easiest way to learn effective techniques.

    BDL
     
  15. lennyd

    lennyd

    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    17
    Exp:
    Other
    BDL I have to admit that was one of the better explanations (OK maybe one of the best lol) of chasing or removing a burr I have seen, and I have read more than one :)

    I like the Y and y examples and have a bookmark in one of my computers to a web page that used a similar example as I found it very helpful. Even after sharpening for much of my adult life and even before I was at one time not actually aware of what was happening while I was repeatedly feeling that folded over steel on the edge of my knives, and it was enlightening to learn how it all worked. I guess I was just following what I was taught and made small adjustments over time that seemed to help with I was sharpening at the time, but I believe no matter the skill level or experience having a well written detailed explanation is a real help in improving ones sharpening skills.

    I its not the place but deeper discussion on "wires" is always good reading as well.

    Only thing I would add is the word CAUTION in front of feeling for the burr, and also to never ever feel down the length of the knife! This can remove flesh faster than the brain can sense the pain, and especially so when dealing with an ultra thin wire like most hi tech steels can produce.

    In comparison to the many tools, hunting style knives, and even the previous German Henckels I have had the Japanese knives I now own produce a smaller but most times much sharper burr and often it is actually a wire that makes industrial razor blades seem dull.

    Every time I read of things like this I recall the few people who have attempted to "thumb an edge" on one of my freshly sharpened knives, but luckily caught them in time. Some were experienced cooks, others hunters and various enthusiasts etc but I was caught off guard every time because I would never eve
    think of running any part of o e of my fingers across the top edge of a Knife.

    Even a new neighbor who after advising he was fond of Asian cutlery tried to push his thumb into my konosuke edge. That could have been ugly.

    Point is that though any knife need to be respected etc the edge and more so wire on a good J knife can be extremely more sharp than most are accustomed to, and there is a real need to be careful when feeling a burr/wire and when handling in general.

    Personally I prefer cutting poultry fish and beef over myself ;)
     
  16. boar_d_laze

    boar_d_laze

    Messages:
    8,551
    Likes Received:
    193
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    Thanks Lenny.  I hate to tell you how stupid I am when it comes to thumb dragging and "three finger" testing knives and razors.  I don't cut myself but it's stupid nonetheless, and I should be more detailed in describing what people of greater intelligence should and should not do. 

    BDL
     
  17. curious mac

    curious mac

    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    11
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    I can add that if you sharpen on stones you can see the burr.  Take the knife, hold it edge up and find a light source, like the over your stove light or something similar.  You need a bright light that is not diffused in the area.    You can move the knife edge to a point that the light will reflect off the burr and it is very obvious.  It looks like a bright streak down the edge of the blade when you are looking straight down on the edge and the light hits it properly, like reflecting a beam of light with a mirror.

    Then you can finish the sharpening process and return to the light source and, if you did your job properly, you won't see the burr any longer.  A properly sharpened edge doesn't have any thing on it that will reflect the light.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2012
  18. lennyd

    lennyd

    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    17
    Exp:
    Other
    Well guess I am guilty as well lol, but I have been using my thumb nail to feel for a burr more often since making the change to J knives.

    Of course when feeling from spine to edge the many nerve endings of a finger will tell the brain the most info, but if there is a fine wire we do risk finding how sharp one can be, ouch!

    On the many other things I sharpen I don't find it to be of the same level of concern though I know well that this could bite me one day too.
     
  19. lennyd

    lennyd

    Messages:
    564
    Likes Received:
    17
    Exp:
    Other
    I believe that is similar to what BDL referred to as the glint test
    U
    Also what amount of reflection of light would you expect to see when using a 2,3,4,5,6 or even 10k it above stone?


    Personally I have found a decent amount of reflection as low as 2k and nearly a mirror at 6k.

    It gets real interesting when you use magnification and examine reflection with higher grit stones.
     
  20. boar_d_laze

    boar_d_laze

    Messages:
    8,551
    Likes Received:
    193
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    Perspective:

    FWIW, I'm a good sharpener but not a great one, and seldom put in the extra time to take an edge to its absolute max.  The Konosuke in the video was a well sharpened knife, but not exceptionally so.  My Konosukes are that sharp when they come off the stones, so are my Sabatiers. 

    (1) Factory sharp, out of the box edges -- which are as sharp as most people will ever see -- aren't particularly sharp; and

    (2) YOU should have edges which are AT LEAST factory sharp. 

    In order to get and keep good edges you need decent knives and decent sharpening and maintenance tools and methods.  But the equipment doesn't have to be particularly expensive, and the methods don't have to be particularly difficult to learn or onerous to perform.  There are plenty of good, reasonably priced knives, Forschner Fibrox for example; and plenty of easy-to-use, reasonably priced sharpening gear, a Chef's Choice two-stage electric by way of another example.  On the other hand, there are limits to how tightly you can squeeze a buck or loonie.  If you buy cheap dreck, don't be surprised if it performs like cheap dreck.

    Good, sharp knives are a good cook's pride and joy.  They make prep more fun for the home cook, quicker and less onerous for the pro.  They are an investment in yourself, and that's the best investment you can make. 

    ______________________________________________________

    More Perspective -- Noobie Beware:

    Seekers interested in learning to sharpen should bear in mind that the internet is filled with (well-meaning) people who don't know what they're talking about but still want you to not only do as they do but adopt their superstitions along the way.  Of course that includes knife forums. 

    This little corner of the universe is less prone to bad advice than others, which is a good thing.  However, even at CT, if you ask about sharpening in one of the "Pro" or "Student" threads, make sure to bring an umbrella as it will start raining ignorance.  The trick is distinguishing good advice (which may come from a different perspective and/or be expressed in an unexpected way) from crap. 

    Here, there and anywhere:  Make sure you have your BS detector with you, that it is set on "high," and that you have fresh batteries.  Don't forget the umbrella.

    _______________________________________________________

    Glint test:

    Face a bright light source which won't hurt your eye.  Looking through the window of an unlit room during the day works well.

    Press the butt of the handle against your cheek, under your eye so you're looking down the edge towards the light source.  Now wiggle the knife back and forth so each side is SLIGHTLY favored over the other for a moment. 
    • If you see glints here and there, the knife is out of true and should be trued on a hone or strop, or sharpened and deburred.
    • If the glints aren't here and there along the edge, but one side is brighter than the other (only occurs during sharpening), you have a burr which should be deburred.
    ________________________________________________________

    More on the Burr Method:

    A burr, whether a "y" shaped bending burr, a y shaped deposit burr, or a "Y" shaped wire is an inevitable part of the sharpening process.  When you break (or dissolve) the tail of the "y" or "Y" from the "V," you're left not only with the V geometry you want, but the apex of that V is fresh, unstressed metal.  Something you also want.  

    The sharpening processes of (a) moving through the grit progression to finer stones, and (b) "chasing the burr" so that it breaks evenly and cleanly off the edge, create an ever finer and more even edge.  Again, things you want.   

    Coarse stones "scuff" the bevel and leave scratches.  When the burr is removed and the edge revealed, "scratches" are expressed along the edge as serrations (aka "teeth").  A little bit of tooth (micro-serration) is a good thing when cutting fibrous or tough foods like red meats or melon rinds; but there are drawbacks.  Teeth bend and break easily, so toothy edges need a lot of maintenance and repair.  Toothy edges don't make the same, glass-smooth cuts that fine edges do.  Think of "polish" as a different word for expressing "scuff."   The right level of polish -- a function of the choice of the final stone -- for a given knife depends not only on how the knife will be used, but how well the knife can take and hold the polish. 

    "Chasing the burr" is the process of not only refining the burr but the related process of getting it to flip from side to side.  If you can get it to flip easily with a single pass, alternating passes on each side, the edge is ready for deburring.  It's like tearing/breaking a credit card in half, or tearing a clean line a sheet of paper.  The more you bend it along a sharp crease, the more easily and evenly it will tear.  Similarly, the finer and more well chased the burr, the finer and sharper the edge after (appropriate) deburring. 

    Things like the glint test, the BIC test, the Murray Carter Three Finger Test are best left for later.  So are techniques which involve "dissolving" the burr, as opposed to straightforward deburring.

    The "burr method" of sharpening is not only understandable, but provides tactile milestones which let you know when to advance from one stage to another.  That's why I recommend learning it as opposed to learning any other method first.  For similar, visual reasons I also recommend that new sharpeners learn the "Magic Marker trick." 

    The "muscle memory" aspects like correct angles, steady angle holding, speed and pressure, tend to fall into place at the same time or just after you've learned to see and feel what you're doing.  Not surprising, really.

    Worth repeating that while the "burr method" is powerful enough for any purposes, it's not the only right way to sharpen.  In that respect, it's just good one way among several others.  On the other hand, I've found that it's the quickest way for most people to understand the process and build a foundation of good techniques which will allow them to perform all of the sharpening functions (thinning, profiling, repairing, sharpening and polishing) at a fairly high level and with a minimum of learning curve -- as freehand sharpening goes. 

    BDL
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2012