Industrial Bone broth basics

[mgm0]

Hello everyone.

I might just have a side gig coming up and was hoping to get some insight on the subject.
Have you guys ever done any kind of stock on a major scale?
What would the common problems be when moving from what a very busy kitchen(50L day)usually does to a factory setting?
Whats up with the bone honeycombing(?) when cooked for a long time in a pressure cooker?
Cider vinegar, real flavor factor or a myth(1 tablespoon per 2 liters of stock)?
anything really as I am just getting started on the subject.
Cheers

 

[chefwriter]

You seem to be asking several questions at once. A bit more specificity would be helpful in helping you.

 

[Seoul Food]

Going from a regular kitchen to a factory setting is going to be way different. The factory will have its own procedures for streamlining the whole process. I've never cooked stock in a pressure cooker so I can't answer that and I have never added vinegar to a stock. I can't imagine that would make that big of a difference in flavor with that ratio, more so when you scale up for a factory setting.

 

[mgm0]

You seem to be asking several questions at once. A bit more specificity would be helpful in helping you.

you are absolutely right.

I guess I just wanted to test the waters and see if any of you have any feedback on making stock at large volumes. Specially bone broth, glorified beef stock as I understand it.

 

[mgm0]

Going from a regular kitchen to a factory setting is going to be way different. The factory will have its own procedures for streamlining the whole process. I've never cooked stock in a pressure cooker so I can't answer that and I have never added vinegar to a stock. I can't imagine that would make that big of a difference in flavor with that ratio, more so when you scale up for a factory setting.

yeah the vinegar thing bugs me too. As the ones heading the operation are really pushing for it, as it is essential and everyone else uses it. Personally I have no idea why, but I just put it out there to see what people made of it. maybe some chemical reaction or something. Lots of testing ahead and we will see what comes out of it.

 

[PeterI]

I suspect that the vinegar is there to react with the calcium carbonate in the bones. Calcium acetate is soluble in water. This may result in a significant increase in how much you can extract from the bones.

(Whether you want this or not is another question.)

 

[foodpump]

“Bone broth” ....

Well, you’re going to need at least an 80 qt tilting kettle if you want to make in your quantities that are profitable.
You could use an 80 qt pot and stove top, but these are heavy, and impossible to move once filled with water, plus, this eats up valuable cooking real estate for hours on end. For some reason N.American cookware mnfctrs are either too stupid or figure their customers are too stupid to ask for a spigot and cage to put on their pots. Spigots make fast and easy work draining the pot, which is why they are on the tilting kettles. It’s the difference of draining a pot in under 3 minutes with very little work, or hand-bailing stock until the pot is manageable to wrestle to the floor where more hand bailing ensues, a task of over 15 minutes of hard and sweaty/steamy work.

Once cooked, you’re going to need a method of cooling down your stock—fast. This is just as or even more important than the actual cooking. Which means portioning the stock into manageable quantities and cooling in a water bath. So that means sinks and ice.

A lot of people insist on cooking the bones for days on end, but as the French would say :”boulle-sheet”. You could make a cup of coffee with whole beans, it’s would just take very long to extract the flavour,which is why coffee is ground prior r to brewing. So your bone size is important-smaller size =more surface area=quicker and more flavorfull extraction.

Then again, bones don’t have much flavour. Connective tissue and gristle has more flavour than bones, gelatin too. Roasting the bones provides flavour, but, say, a leg bone stufffed full of marrow doesn’t offer much in the way of flavour. So, smaller bones, preferably joints, ( wing tips, feet) lots of trimmings, silverskin, and mirepoix, and, if you’re smart, you start using remmouillage to start off a fresh batch of bones.

Of course you’re going to need some type of short term storage, ie., a walk-in cooler, packaging equipment, and long term storage, ie. a freezer.

Hope this helps....

 

[chefross]

Thank you foodpump. I have lots of experience with the "Trunian" kettles, as we used to call them.
I'd laugh at the newbies who forget to put the cage over the drain inside the kettle, then watch as they try to figure out how to unclog the spigot.
Thank God for the floor drains.
Those were the days
I was one of those that made 80-100 gallons of stock each and every day.
2 hours is all you need for chicken stock. Veggie is like 20 minutes. Beef/veal stock was 12-14 hours, started at 4:00 am

Whats up with the bone honeycombing(?) when cooked for a long time in a pressure cooker?

You cooked those poor things to death, that's what's up.

I've never heard of vinegar in stock.

A pressure cooker can do chicken stock in 45-50 minutes.

 

[mgm0]

I suspect that the vinegar is there to react with the calcium carbonate in the bones. Calcium acetate is soluble in water. This may result in a significant increase in how much you can extract from the bones.

(Whether you want this or not is another question.)

Ok that's something that I would love exploring. Any specific ratios to get me started? otherwise I'll just wing it testing from a 20ml per 2kg of bones aiming to 4L of stock.

 

[mgm0]

“Bone broth” ....

Well, you’re going to need at least an 80 qt tilting kettle if you want to make in your quantities that are profitable.
You could use an 80 qt pot and stove top, but these are heavy, and impossible to move once filled with water, plus, this eats up valuable cooking real estate for hours on end. For some reason N.American cookware mnfctrs are either too stupid or figure their customers are too stupid to ask for a spigot and cage to put on their pots. Spigots make fast and easy work draining the pot, which is why they are on the tilting kettles. It’s the difference of draining a pot in under 3 minutes with very little work, or hand-bailing stock until the pot is manageable to wrestle to the floor where more hand bailing ensues, a task of over 15 minutes of hard and sweaty/steamy work.

Once cooked, you’re going to need a method of cooling down your stock—fast. This is just as or even more important than the actual cooking. Which means portioning the stock into manageable quantities and cooling in a water bath. So that means sinks and ice.

A lot of people insist on cooking the bones for days on end, but as the French would say :”boulle-sheet”. You could make a cup of coffee with whole beans, it’s would just take very long to extract the flavour,which is why coffee is ground prior r to brewing. So your bone size is important-smaller size =more surface area=quicker and more flavorfull extraction.

Then again, bones don’t have much flavour. Connective tissue and gristle has more flavour than bones, gelatin too. Roasting the bones provides flavour, but, say, a leg bone stufffed full of marrow doesn’t offer much in the way of flavour. So, smaller bones, preferably joints, ( wing tips, feet) lots of trimmings, silverskin, and mirepoix, and, if you’re smart, you start using remmouillage to start off a fresh batch of bones.

Of course you’re going to need some type of short term storage, ie., a walk-in cooler, packaging equipment, and long term storage, ie. a freezer.

Hope this helps....

All very useful info mate. Specially the part about the joints, we always have a surplus of wing tips.

quick question, what is remmouillage?

As for the cooling solutions we are sorted with a couple of walking chillers and frezzers.

 

[mgm0]

Thank you foodpump. I have lots of experience with the "Trunian" kettles, as we used to call them.
I'd laugh at the newbies who forget to put the cage over the drain inside the kettle, then watch as they try to figure out how to unclog the spigot.
Thank God for the floor drains.
Those were the days
I was one of those that made 80-100 gallons of stock each and every day.
2 hours is all you need for chicken stock. Veggie is like 20 minutes. Beef/veal stock was 12-14 hours, started at 4:00 am



You cooked those poor things to death, that's what's up.

I've never heard of vinegar in stock.

A pressure cooker can do chicken stock in 45-50 minutes.

I would love to try those timings for stock, would 24H be a no go for beef?
and yeah I guessed that the bones were overcooked.
But it was only 6 hours in a pressure cooker, would the higher temp have something to do with it as well?

 

[mgm0]

and sorry for the late replies. Not getting much sleep this days and Golden week is keeping us pretty high strung this days. All the help is very much apreciated though.

 

[thomas fontaine]

CONCERNING THE MEANS OF PACKAGING of stocks this seems to me to be a fairly easy system. The staple allows the bag to be sealed immediately when hot, which ensures a sort of pasteurization of the packaging without air residues.
http://www.pansaver.com/cookchillproducts.html

 

[BluePEI]

The vinegar in the formulation will help with clarification.
The honeycombing indicates you are cooking the bones too long.
At industrial scale (2000+ liters) I have used large Cleveland equipment and Blentech. The Blentech equipment is good because you can purchase an option that will allow you to cook under vacuum.