Gyuto profiles - question on the "flat section"?

Discussion in 'Cooking Knife Reviews' started by kavik79, Aug 26, 2014.

  1. kavik79

    kavik79

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    Been researching knives to buy off and on for a while now, have owned a few smaller Japanese knives for a couple months, finally got back around to this and bought a gyuto

    In all the reviews they talk about the length of the flat spot before it starts curving up to the tip, mentioning how the longer flat section is for better board contact

    This is my question: How flat should that be?  Should it actually be dead flat with the board from the heel till where it starts to curve up?

    This probably sounds like a dumb question, it's just that I have nothing to compare to, and the Richmond Laser Aogami 240 that I bought seems to curve from heel to toe, there's no spot on it that makes full contact for more than a very short section at a time. The very point of the heel especially seems to curve up quite a bit, enough that there's barely a bevel on it from the factory sharpening.

    Should I be attempting the flatten from the end of the curve straight to the heel when I sharpen it?

    I don't have it at the moment (it's going to end up being a birthday gift from my son, so I'll get it back tonight lol), but I can post some pics later showing how it sits on a flat surface
     
  2. ordo

    ordo

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    Not a single portion of my favorite gyutos (Masamoto, Tanaka, Togiharu) is totally flat. From the heel to the tip, there's always some curvature.

    The only knife i own that has an almost flat profile is a customized Kanemasa that i morfed into a kind of 250 mm. santoku. I use it sometimes cause the edge is terrific, but as cutters, i certainly prefer the former. Here's the profile pick of the Kanemasa.


    Remember also, that it entirely depends on your style of cutting.
     
  3. kavik79

    kavik79

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    I'm still working on techniques/styles.....but I got the feeling looking at it that I wouldn't get through the whole length of a pepper if I chopped straight down

    that pic definitely looks much flatter by the heel than mine looked

    I probably should've waited till tonight to post this with pics, but I was bored and thinking about it lol
     
  4. millionsknives

    millionsknives

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    It completely depends on your technique and preference.  If you want to see a flat gyuto, check out Takeda.  That's my unicorn knife!
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2014
  5. jbroida

    jbroida

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    not really... thats just bad sharpening if that happens
     
  6. kavik79

    kavik79

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    First of all, thanks for the replies so far. And apologies in advance for the poor picture, but it's late and I'm tired lol


    When I just rock the knife gently on the board it stops pretty solidly at this point.  To go further I have to angle the handle down and lift the tip, basically rocking on the heel

    Played with the knife a little tonight, and the edge out of the box is pretty nice, just slips through potato and peppers like they're barely there....but exactly what I was worried about is what happened

    When I was cutting up some peppers, rocking, chopping or push cutting, the cut always stopped at the point that's in contact with the board in the pic, any part closer to the heel didn't cut through....so, obviously it's not working for me

    I just don't know.....am I trying to cut too close to the heel? Or, even if the flat spot shouldn't be a huge long section, should it happen more towards the heel?

    It seems to me that it should go right to the end, but I might just be used to knives that do, like the ones Benuser mentioned

    So, it's just another issue with my learning curve? Or it's something that should be corrected on the stones?
    (I'm still leaning towards needs correcting, and I know it's a big "your mileage may vary" kind of thing, I just don't want to alter the knife more than I should while I'm still learning, and end up doing something that just reinforces my bad habits)
     
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  7. kavik79

    kavik79

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    Yes, that's the condition it came in. At the time the picture was taken I'd done nothing more then take it out of the box and rock it on the board 3 or 4 times to make sure it always stopped at that same point.

    Thanks Ben, I was afraid that was going to be the answer...but it's hard to know for sure when it's your first, you know?

    Anyone else think the same?
     
  8. millionsknives

    millionsknives

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    I don't think that is the intended shape.  They should offer you an exchange.  If you don't have a grinder, this could take a long time to fix, beyond the sharpening and maintenance expected of a user on a brand new knife.  They're not just any vendor in this case, it is their house brand.
     
  9. kavik79

    kavik79

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    I do have a grinder, but not enough experience to feel comfortable regrinding a brand new >$200 knife on it. Don't think i should really have to either

    I guess I'll take a clearer pic and get in touch with them about it, hopefully there won't be any hassle getting it replaced, i was impressed with the rest of the knife
     
  10. galley swiller

    galley swiller

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    Unless it's a wet grinder, I wouldn't use a motorized grinder on any knife.  Too much chance of damaging the localized heat tempering of the knife.

    Instead, I would use a low grit stone.  You can get a stone with a grit as low as 24 grit (Numataba Ume XXC Aratae, from Chef Knives To Go).  

    I have successfully reprofiled an old junk carbon Sabatier (a Veritable, but not a "Chef au Ritz") that had a portion of the edge in the middle of the blade very uneven.  However, the repair used up much of the stone of a Beston 500.

    But I figured it was worth it, since one of my sisters-in-law was threatening to confiscate a very good vintage carbon "Chef Au Ritz" Sabatier I had and she coveted.  The reprofiled Sabatier went to her instead.  I can always get another stone, but a good vintage Sabatier would be another matter.

    Galley Swiller
     
  11. millionsknives

    millionsknives

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    For knives peple use a water wheel which helps keep it cool or they need to dunk the knife in a bucket of water occasionally. If the friction heats the knife over some temperature, the heat treatment of the steel is affected. I only know enough to know it's out of my skill set. See what Mark says about exchange.
     
  12. millionsknives

    millionsknives

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    Galley swiller beat me to it.
     
  13. kavik79

    kavik79

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    I have a variable speed grinder with a "fryable" wheel on it...I've got to really stop paying attention in order to change steel color on a chisel with that wheel. Made out well with it on a couple other knives too. But, no, still not as good of an option as a wet wheel

    If it were a cheap knife, or an old knife, I'd be glad to start grinding it down.....but not if it really is a manufacturing flaw on a brand new knife....and so far no one is chiming in to say this looks normal to them lol
     
  14. kavik79

    kavik79

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    I'll be sure to let you know.  I'm curious myself....found a couple stories about difficulties returning to this vendor, unfortunately I didn't see them till after I ordered
     
  15. kavik79

    kavik79

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    for any curious, just sent an email off to the vendor, along with a couple pics, including this one:


    So, at the point where it stops rocking, the heel is a full 1/16" off the board and approx 1.75" of blade not making contact

    (red lines just to mark the contact patch)

    just thought I'd update, now that I had an actual measurement
     
  16. ordo

    ordo

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    Now i can see that "belly". Seems to be an over grinding of the last portion of the heel.
     
  17. kavik79

    kavik79

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    For the update that was promised:

    I've had a few emails back and forth with the vendor.  Originally was told that the flat spot was fine and the curve at the heel was intentional, to keep users from digging the heel into the board.

    I shared some more measurements, re-stated my side of things and, though he never came out and said it wasn't right, he did offer my choice of replacement or refund, including shipping costs....which I think says something about that.

    He was good enough to send pictures of what I could choose from for replacements, but based on the pictures of his and mine side by side, I chose the refund option.

    So, while I was unimpressed with the consistency of these blades and handles sizes and shapes, I am happy that it is being taken care of

    and now......back to looking for another knife again *sighs*
     
  18. millionsknives

    millionsknives

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    I really dislike packing and sending knives back. These days, I'll spend a couple more dollars with consistently good vendors.
     
  19. kavik79

    kavik79

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    I'm open to suggestions :)
     
  20. millionsknives

    millionsknives

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    Nothing beats holding it in your hand and inspecting exactly the knife you are buying. If I were you, trip d own to Korin in NYC. Have a nice lunch and spoil yourself!

    Online JKI has free shipping over $100 and I have never gotten anything bad there. I think Jon works closely with his makers and has good qc.

    Jck has $7 shipping and a lot of selection in your price range.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2014