gelatin 160 bloom converts to...what? need your help...

Discussion in 'Professional Pastry Chefs' started by galit, Aug 9, 2010.

  1. galit

    galit

    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Professional Pastry Chef
    Hi!

    So I have some recipes that use 160 bloom sheets. I want to convert it to the kosher gelatin powder.

    One recipe calls for 30 gr. I couldn't find online and here how much gr in sheets will convert to powder.

    I read in one place that it's equal. 30 gr of sheet=30 gr of powder but it doesn't seems right.

    Anyone knows the math???

    BTW- I found 2 companies online who make kosher, non meat gelatins. One of these companies even volunteered

    to send me samples for free! if you want names- let me know.

    Thanks!
     
  2. aprildb

    aprildb

    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Professional Chef
    30 gr = 30 gr. It's a weight issue. That's why I like using weight measure for dry ingredients rather than cups or...1 pound always equals 1 pound no matter what it is.

    Gelatin seems pretty straightforward unless there's something different about Kosher gelatin (coming from an animal rather than ?) as far as density. But if they say it's the same then go with it.

    April
     
  3. galit

    galit

    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Professional Pastry Chef
    Hi April, thanks so much!

    I searched well the web and saw there are all kind of conversions from the silver, gold sheets to knox

    and all these formulas to multiply...so if 30 gr sheet=30 gr. powder, why it's such a huge issue? there is no importance for the bloom?

    I looked at this thread and it's all calculations:http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?/topic/85599-gelatin-conversion/  

    I guess it's because the gr. of the sheet is unknown??

    I'm a fan of the scale too. Never mesaure spoons and cups.
     
  4. petemccracken

    petemccracken

    Messages:
    3,401
    Likes Received:
    158
    Exp:
    Professional Chef
    According to http://books.google.com/books?id=4u...epage&q=gelatin bloom sheet to powder&f=false , 17 sheets of gelatin (gold, silver, bronze, makes no difference) = 1 ounce (28 grams) of gelatin powder. IMPORTANT! That does NOT say 28 grams of leaf gelatin is equal to 28 grams of powder.

    In "googling", it appears that the various "blooms" of sheet gelatin, i.e. gold, silver, bronze, etc., have sheet weights that are inversely proportional to the bloom number so that the same number of sheets, whatever the "bloom", will set the same amount of liquid. Though the number of sheets may be the same, the "weight" of bronze sheets will be greater than the weight of the same number of "gold" sheets.

    So, for me, that means that for every "sheet" of gelatin called for, I need 1.65 grams of powder or,
    • 1 sheet = 1.65 grams of powder
    • 2 sheets = 3.3 grams of powder
    • 3 sheets = 4.95 grams of powder (I'd use 5 grams)
    • 4 sheets = 6.59 grams of powder (I'd use 6.6 grams)
    • 5 sheets = 8.25 grams of powder
    and the grade of the sheet gelatin, i.e. gold, silver, bronze, makes no difference, AS LONG AS ONE REPLACES SHEETS OF GELATIN WITH GRAMS OF POWDER!
     
  5. galit

    galit

    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Professional Pastry Chef
    Hello Chef and thank you for your answer.

    So according to what you are saying, if I don't know the weight of the sheet, I cannot convert?

    All I know is that I need 30 gr. of 160 bloom sheets. I have no idea how much these sheets weigh but from the research online I found that

    160 blooms sheets(silver) weigh 2.5 each (hopefully). 160/2.5=12

    That means I have 12 sheets. According to the 1.65 gr powder tx 12 sheets= 19.8 gr powdwer.

    That is pretty far from 30 gr powder. I guess I will have to try it, right?

    I wish I knew the accurate real way to do it!

    Thanks so much!!!
     
  6. petemccracken

    petemccracken

    Messages:
    3,401
    Likes Received:
    158
    Exp:
    Professional Chef
    30 grams (silver) * SqRoot(160/225) = ?? grams powder

    30 grams (silver) * 0.843274 = 25.3 grams powder

    17 sheets of silver = 28 grams of powder

    therefore

    12 sheets = 12/17*28 grams of powder or 19.76 grams of powder

    Hm, that's a good amount of difference!

    Not being a "baker", but a "reformed engineer turned chef", I'm not sure which is correct, or even close!

    Maybe you should try "splitting the difference, i.e. 25.3+19.8 = 22.6 grams, as a starting point?
     
  7. galit

    galit

    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Professional Pastry Chef
    So..I suck at math and if you are an engeneer you are probably right but I didn't get it....what is the 225 you divided the `160 with?
     
  8. galit

    galit

    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Professional Pastry Chef
  9. foodpump

    foodpump

    Messages:
    4,854
    Likes Received:
    436
    Exp:
    Professional Pastry Chef
    Ahhhh, so that is what the gold, silver, and bronze sheets are.  If I understand correctly, "gold" would be at a higher bloom strength, but the sheet would be thinner because less of it is required to set up, say, a mousse.

    I do know that "bloom" refers to the strength of the set gelatin.  I researched "bloom" and found a lot of information relating to Hide Glue--gelatin's direct cousin, which was pateneted by Peter Cooper, who also patented various techniqus for making hide glue.  The "secret recipie" for gelatine was sold to numerous people until General Foods bought it and changed the name to "Jell-o".

    According to my research, Oscar T. Bloom invented the "Gelometer" which he patented in 1926.: A 6 2/3 weight percentage solution is used to test food grade and photography grade gelatin, and the results are expressed in grams bloom.  Basically a 1/2" dia. plunger is used to plunge a depth of 3/16" into the gelatin.  Lead shot is poured into a hopper, and when the plunger reaches 3/16", the amount of lead in the hoper is wieghed. 

    While reading up on this, I foud a "quaint" recipie for converting Knox Gelatin into woodworking glue...............

    Anyone in the mood for a bowl of jello?
     
  10. boar_d_laze

    boar_d_laze

    Messages:
    8,551
    Likes Received:
    193
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    You soooooooooooooo suck at math. 

    160/2.5 is not 12, it's 64.  At least in this universe. On the other hand, 30/2.5 is 12. 

    Don't feel too bad, other people soooooooooooo suck at gelatin.  Mass for mass not all gelatines are created equal.  Some are more efficient than others -- that is, they can gel a greater amount of liquid.

    There is a formula for converting various forms of sheet to various forms of powder.  Here goes:

    Weight (Bloom 2) = Weight (Bloom 1) x square root (Bloom1/Bloom2)

    You're undoubtedly much better at pastry than I am, but I'm pretty good at 'rithmetic.  So I worked it out for you.  Mass for mass, Knox gelatin powder is roughly 1.2X more efficient than 160 bloom sheet gelatin. Conversely (and reciprocally), it might also help you to know that 160 bloom sheet gelatin is roughly 0.8X as efficient as Knox gelatin powder. 

    Thus, to answer your specific question directly, 30 grams of 160 sheet is roughly equivalent to 25 grams of Knox powder.  

    It doesn't do to rely on conversion numbers or gelatin amounts too carefully.  There's a certain amount of by God and by Gosh in most recipes, and they usually specify a little more than is absolutely needed just to be sure.  Unless you're making something with a very soft texture which will be very carefully held (pannacotta, fine dining, e.g.) it's better to continue with "better safe than sorry."

    When cooking with gelatin conversions a little too much is better than even a bit too little.

    25g is on the money.  If you measure 30 grams instead of 25, that won't be too bad.  Just under 20g -- which is your proposal -- might be a little risky.

    Hope this helps,

    BDL

    PS.  Since you asked, Pete's "225" is the bloom number for Knox powdered gelatin.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2010
  11. galit

    galit

    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Professional Pastry Chef
    heyyyyyyyyyyyyyy I'm not that bad. I meant: 30 (gr)/2.5=12

    It was a typo! there's no sense for me to write 160- ---to divide the bloom so eventhough I'm not that good at math for advanced, I still know to divide:)

    OK and for your answer...it make sense what you are writing. I was exploring this subject all day...some say a leaf is 3 gr, some say 2...I guess the truth is in the middle and as you say- it's better more then a little so thanks for your answer!
     
  12. galit

    galit

    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Professional Pastry Chef
    BTW- I'm not sure I'm going to use knox...so that changes everything again, right? oh my...
     
  13. petemccracken

    petemccracken

    Messages:
    3,401
    Likes Received:
    158
    Exp:
    Professional Chef
    Mmm, I don't believe it changes anything, everything I've found talks about "gelatin powder", not specific brands, and almost without exception, the "bloom" is 225.

    Now, TBS, I'd listen to BDL
     
     
  14. boar_d_laze

    boar_d_laze

    Messages:
    8,551
    Likes Received:
    193
    Exp:
    Cook At Home
    If not Knox, what?

    If we can find the bloom number, we can work the math.

    BDL
     
  15. galit

    galit

    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Professional Pastry Chef
    So I'm getting this gelatin from a company online...they offered to send free samples! so I will let you know when I know

    for sure the number.

    It's amazing how I found 50 different ways of converting. I guess it's like 50 ways to make a meruinge....

    Thank you all for the dialoge:)
     
  16. aprildb

    aprildb

    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    10
    Exp:
    Professional Chef
    OK, ya know I grew up where gelatin was gelatin. To be honest I have never run into strengths of a bloomin sheet! LOL.

    All I've ever used was gelatin and it worked fine for mousse, stabilized whipped cream, certain pie fillings or whatnot....hmmmm....

    Just one more culinary curiosity to look into.

    April
     
  17. chefedb

    chefedb

    Messages:
    5,516
    Likes Received:
    174
    Exp:
    Retired Chef
    Gelatin is denatured collagen that has been dried out and made into sheets or powder. Strengths are affected by salt, it lowers the bonding capacity whereas sugar increases it .Milk protein makes gel stronger.. It is used in so many applications today, and modified in so many ways that you would need a full page to list them all.
     
  18. foodpump

    foodpump

    Messages:
    4,854
    Likes Received:
    436
    Exp:
    Professional Pastry Chef
    Yup. 

    Don't forget certain acids like fresh pineapple, and fresh kiwi will "kill" the gelatine as well.
     
  19. titomike

    titomike

    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    15
    Exp:
    Professional Chef
    Since those two and papaya are used to tenderise 'cos of one or two enzymes they contain then they probably breakdown the very connective tissue gelatine is originally made from.

    I couldn't set a tamarind pannacotta but a friend's brullee was fine and didnt curdle....enzymes maybe?
     
  20. chefedb

    chefedb

    Messages:
    5,516
    Likes Received:
    174
    Exp:
    Retired Chef
    Alcohol will make gelatin gel better. BUT over 20% alcohol will make it break off in chunks and stone like pieces.