Crime and Gun Ownership

Discussion in 'The Late Night Cafe (off-topic)' started by kokopuffs, Aug 12, 2002.

  1. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    Just the other day in California a perpetrator who abducted and raped two young girls was shot and killed by deputies. That exact area where he was killed was my old party spot, not far from home. The desert harbors alot of lowlife; it's a cheap place to live and easy to find hideouts from the law. Whenever I go hiking in that area I am fully armed; I hope that you anit-gun types understand, now. The wild west is still alive and well. As long as the revolving door justice system exists, I'll fight to the death for personal firearms ownership. NRA forever!!!
     
  2. phatch

    phatch Moderator Staff Member

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  3. chrose

    chrose

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    Well it does say "Non-related Food Forums" so I guess this qualifies:eek:
     
  4. chefboy2160

    chefboy2160

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    kokopuffs , I agree . I have been personally touched by violent crimes of murder and I think back , if only they were prepared and understood the nature of the violent human . In my state you can get a concieled weapons permit for $300 bucks . A gun is a tool which is used only when needed , but when it is needed it can save your life . Without , you can just be another statistic .
    Especially women , they are the prey of choice for the sick person who want to use you and take your lives to cover there cowardice actions . Fight back , this is what America is all about ,
    standing up and being free , dont let anyone take your freedom or life from you . My very first ever love was murdered by the hillside stranglers in 1977 and I can still feel the pain . I have been touched by much more in my life also by these crimes but I have children and oh the thought of them being harmed by these bad people , well , just fight back . Good must overcome evil by whatever means . I say go to the wild wild west .
    Peace to all , Douglas ..................................................
     
  5. thebighat

    thebighat

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    At one point in my 30's I got into guns bigtime..handloading, competition shooting, all of it. I had 18 handguns and several rifles. Then Stockton happened and I was appalled at the NRA's reaction to it. I got very disenchanted with the gun lobby and gun owners in the club I belonged to. There was an article in a hunting magazine that had an elegaic picture of a guy with a grizzly bear's head on his backpack, silhouetted against the setting sun in some idyllic mountain retreat. I was so offended that this guy thought he had the right to terminate that bear's life that I wrote a story mimicking the style of things you see in hunting and shooting magazines, but instead of big game, I was shooting dogs around the neighborhood. Stuff like.."The .25 caliber popgun is ok for the occasional Pekingese encountered in the apartment hallway, but to stand and flatten a charging Doberman with a handgun is man's work." I pinned it on the bulletin board, and someone scribbled on it, much to my gratification, "The person who wrote this shouldn't be allowed to own a gun!" No imagination whatsoever. I got rid of almost all the guns, except a shotgun, a single shot .22 and a revolver, all of which I grew up with. I'm conflicted about gun ownership. Not many people, I think, are competent to defend themselves even in their own houses, in the dark, butt naked or in their pajamas, ready to wet themselves with fear. But on the other hand, what are we supposed to do? Just take it? That's no option either. And that's coming from someone who knows what it's like to have a knife held to your throat in your own bed.
     
  6. bdwillms

    bdwillms

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    Who do you think will replace Charles Heston.Now that he ,by his own admission has Altimiers desease?How about Clint Eastwood .
     
  7. pollyg

    pollyg

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    Firstly, does it not sound a little ironic that you are wishing us all peace after advocating fighting?
    I really hope that America is about more than that.
    I don't think that you will ever be free fighting violence with violence; the fact that evil exists in our world is no reason to partake of it.
    Do unto others as you would have then do unto you.
     
  8. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    Like I've said elsewhere, as long as the revolving door justice system is active that allows Charlie Manson to have bi-annual parole hearings, I'll own a firearm or two. I do, however, share many of the same sentiments as BigHat. A big game hunter I'm not; it's not my nature. I'm a bird hunter.

    Might I also mention that the perpetrator, the original subject of this thread, worked in my home town and those I know very well had nothing good to say about him. Too close for comfort. Praise the lord but pass me more ammunition, please. Tanks!
     
  9. phatch

    phatch Moderator Staff Member

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    There is no moral equivalence between self defense and assaulting an innocent person.

    And it would be quite moral and ethical to use the golden rule as you state. The perpetrator chose to use violence, so you answered with violence. The capability of self defense is not a violent or evil step in and of itself and justifies no violence or evil against you.

    Phil
     
  10. pollyg

    pollyg

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    It is an interesting point that the 'capability of self defence' is not bad in and of it's self. I can see that you could extend the argument to 'I am capable of hitting someone with my arm, but i'm not going to get rid of my arm because I haven't done anything bad with it yet'.
    On a different note, I think you have mis-understood the 'golden rule' as you call it. To do unto others as you would have them do unto you, does not mean to do to others what they have done to you, but rather, to treat people they way you would like to be treated.

    It makes me terribly sad that such horrendous things happen in the world.
    It makes me terribly sad that so many people live in countries where the violence is bad enough to make them want to have guns.

    It is a philosophical difference that we have and I don't want to discount the incredible anger we can feel for someone who has hurt a loved one
    (in fact, it is this very understandable and human response that makes taking the peaceful route in life quite difficult)
    but I feel that it's important to try to side with Schwietzer and Ghandi wherever possible.
     
  11. chefboy2160

    chefboy2160

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    I side with peace always . But I will not condone bad actions in my presence . I have been a student of the martial arts for many years and the words martial arts mean warlike ways . War and Peace are two opposite ends of the pendulum swing . When one nation wants war the other wants peace . Later the other wants war and the other wants peace . A horrible unending cycle of violence that can continue for thousands of years .
    On the local level you can always count on there being good and bad people . The good normally outnumber the bad by a vast majority but how many of the good are realy ready to stand up to the bad . When someone bad decides to act out there desires it happens in a split second . If you are there trust me , you are caught so off guard . My message to you is not one of violence but one of being prepared . Dont walk around paranoid , but dont walk around with blinders on also .
    In the martial arts we learn the way of the warrior not to fight wars but to defend peace from those who would abuse us , our friends or our family . For some the warriors path is physically to hard and maybe there path is a weapon of self defense . Mace has been a real big seller and so have firearms .
    I do not condone anything but the right to defend ourselves and our freedom from bad people .
    So many people think that freedom is free but remember how many have died defending our way of life . Should we give up the fight here at home and let the bad be bad . Police are there to catch the criminal after the crime , we are there to stop it , now , when it happens .
    Well my 2 cents , Peace to all , Douglas................................
     
  12. greg

    greg

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    "Good must overcome evil by whatever means"

    Huh?

    Martial arts is a Western term for fighting styles generally of the far east. It does not mean "war-like ways". Judo, for instance, translates to "the gentle way".

    BTW, anybody remember Gandhi? That man was a true warrior.
     
  13. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    SOME PEOPLE STILL BELIEVE IN CHARLIE MANSON AND HIS EDICTS. Yes, I am shouting.
     
  14. phatch

    phatch Moderator Staff Member

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    The Julia Child appearance thread reminded me. She is a member of the Handgun Control Inc's national committee.

    Phil
     
  15. chefboy2160

    chefboy2160

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    OK , one last post ( I Hope ) . Ill keep it simple . I work with a mostly Mexican staff and I love them . Since the males know of my love of martial arts they invited me to there form of the arts .
    Mexican Judo they call it . Picture Cheeches voice when you read this ( From Cheech and Chong ) . Mexican Judo as described by my workers is " Yeah , Judont Know if I got a gun , and Judont Know if I have a knife "
    Trying to inject a little humor , but I still say be prepared .
    Peace and love to all , Doug....................................
     
  16. marmalady

    marmalady

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    LOL, Chefboy! Mexican judo, indeed!


    I, too, am a martial artist, and practitioner of Aikido for 20 years. Japanese martial arts, and many Chinese arts, were developed by farmers who were not permitted to carry weapons, or by monks whose beliefs did not allow them to carry weapons, but needed to defend themselves against raiders. They were all developed as means of self-defense, and some developed into rather brutal hand-to-hand combat techniques.

    Ju-do, or gentle way, developed from jiujitsu, and aiki-jitsu, which are both rather violent, bone cracking methods. Aikido also developed from aiki-jitsu, judo, and is called the 'Way of Harmony'. The philosophy is not to disturb the 'ki' (Japanese word for 'chi', or 'life force'), but rather to blend with it. If someone is disturbing the 'ki', rather than meet blunt force with blunt force, we are taught to 'blend' with the attacker's ki, and show him gently but forcefully to the ground! Ex - I'm a small woman; if a guy throws a punch at me, I'm not strong enough to block that punch; but I can blend with the punch, and use the energy the attacker 'gives' me to apply a throw or joint lock that will land him on his hiney.

    Having participated and taught numerous self-defense classes, my response to the personal handgun issue is this; a) you have to be an expert to be able to draw your weapon instantly, in an attack situation; if you're not, you only risk the attacker taking the gun and using it on you. Think about it - where are you going to keep the gun - in your purse or briefcase when you're out; in your dresser drawer at home? If someone bursts into your kitchen, are you going to say, 'excuse me just one moment while I run to the bedroom'? Same with a knife. b) If you own a gun, are you committed to using it? I've had police officers who handle guns every day of their lives tell me that even when they draw down on someone, they get scared thinking they may injure or kill someone. If you own a gun, be committed to using it.

    I feel so strongly that everyone should take a good self-defense class, and learn what they can do with their bare hands in an attack situation. Learn what you can do with your car keys as a weapon; something you already have out in your hand.

    "Guns don't kill people - people kill people" - an old saying, but true.
     
  17. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    Marm:

    You're right. While out in the desert hiking alone and hearing a vehicle approaching, the pit in my stomach is all consuming. While chambering a round I always chant the mantra, "Finger off of the trigger, finger off of the trigger." Again, it's me versus some unknown entity in solitude.

    Realize all of those in prison for killing (not murdering) someone because "the gun went off". Yeah, while THEIR finger was on the trigger.
     
  18. peachcreek

    peachcreek

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    It is a scary thought that people may be putting a bead on me just because they hear me driving up the road! Yikes!!!!! I go out in the sticks all the time armed with maybe a shovel and an ominous-looking rock hammer.....And I haven't yet had the need to chuck that at anybody......
     
  19. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    Peach:

    I said nothing about aiming the firearm at anyone; I merely described what goes thru my mind while chambering a round - prior to holstering the firearm. Just in case. Like I've said, I'm from the desert and am often 10 miles from the highway and the nearest person. If you haven't hiked in the desert, then you know nothing of what it's can be like out here.
     
  20. marmalady

    marmalady

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    Ahhh, Peach, but ya never really know, do ya? Especially in these crazy times right now.

    Hate to keep cramming martial arts down everyone's throat, but one of the things we learn is awareness - not paranoia that keeps us on a hypervigilant state - but awareness of our surroundings, of who's around us, of what 'feels' normal and what's out of place. We call it 'soft eyes', the sense of not focusing on one thing in particular, but taking in every thing around us.

    An example might be driving down a country road in deer country at dawn or dusk, when the deer are most likely to be on the move. Instead of just focusing on the road ahead, broaden your focus or use 'soft eyes' to expand your field of vision to the surrounding road shoulder, or edge of the road.

    There was a study I remember, where they interviewed muggers and purse snatchers in jail, and asked them who were the most likely targets. Their replies were the people who acted timid while walking (head down, shoulders hunched), or the people who were just not aware of their surroundings (gabbing on cell phones, hustling toddlers, carrying groceries, etc.)

    The lesson - be alert, and aware of your surroundings, no matter where you are.

    After all, Peach, it may not be a psycho in an SUV bearing down on you, but how about that rattler in the tumbleweeds?;)