Christmas Present Time!

Discussion in 'Cooking Knife Reviews' started by kingofkings, Dec 10, 2012.

  1. kingofkings

    kingofkings

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    So, its that time of the year. The time where I can justify getting a new knife.

    I'm looking for a 240mm, or 270mm gyuto. Yo/Wa handle isnt an issue to me, only the fact that Wa handles are usually more expensive keeps me from trying one.

    I currently have a 210mm Carbonext that I like, but I find it too short for a workhorse, and too expensive for a line knife (Forschner bread knife anyone?) I also have a 10 inch Sabatier carbon that I really like.

    I'm much more concerned with a knifes ability to get really sharp than how I feel about edge retention. As long as I can happily use it for a 10-12 hour shift, without noticing a great deal of dulling I don't mind touching it on stones every day.

    I pinch grip. Not as soft as it would be, but not a death grip by any means. I'm working on getting it looser, honestly :)

    I'm tending towards a push/glide cut since I started seriously using my Sab. I rarely rock anymore.

    I do hone the knives I have, as I can do. It would be a plus if I could keep up with this.

    I'm also left handed. I don't think I want a laser. My budget may be prohibitive, at 200$. I can go higher for considerable advancements in quality. Bang for your buck is important, but I don't mean that in a way to keep costs down. I don't mind paying 250$ for something that will match up to a 400$ knife, in the same way that I'd pay 100$ for something to match a 250$ knife. I'm in the UK.

    I've been looking around and am considering a Shaun Fernandez custom from CKtG, a Goko white #1, a Masazumi 240mm, Masamoto HC..
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  2. kingofkings

    kingofkings

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    Anyone have some input?
     
  3. wubu

    wubu

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    So you want something longer than your CN, and cheaper so you don't get heart broken when you lose it on the line, edge retention isn't an issue but you want it to last a 12 hour shift.

    Then again, a lawyer you can trust says "a masamoto is a masamoto"
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
  4. benuser

    benuser

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    And you're left handed.
     
  5. kingofkings

    kingofkings

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    Actually I didnt mention but I won't be using this knife on the line. By edge retention I meant that with the M390s and stuff people are saying they don't have to even touch up their blades for 5-7 weeks, but I'm not too bothered about that.

    Which range of Masamoto is best?
     
  6. duckfat

    duckfat

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    There is nothing out there in M390 that's even remotely in your budget. Someday people will learn to avoid the project knives that get overly fluffed on select forums. Putting that in perspective you'd have well over $400 invested in a $250 knife just to get started and even then you'd still be left with a cra**y knife made with good steel. There's very few insane knife knutz out there that would even bother taking on a project like that. This is where people get totally hood winked with minutia. Good steel alone does not make a great knife. Setting all of that aside I'm baffled by the selections listed when your uncomfortable taking a knife like a CN that's a fraction of the price to work. The solution is to spend more $?

    I'm not sure who said A Masamoto is a Masamoto but either some one was pulling your leg or another post is likely being taken out of context. A Masamoto HC is not even remotely the same as a KS and that can continue to some degree through out their entire line. Even a Masamoto HC is more $$$ than a CN although it may attract a bit less attention from those unfamiliar with the brand (not very likely in a professional setting).

    Unless you are buying used you are probably not going to get a knife for $100 that will "match" the performance of knife that's $250. The only place that usually exists is in marketing hype no matter what brand you select or who you buy it from.

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
  7. wubu

    wubu

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    Lets see...the masamoto quote was separately used about the VG, CT and the KS too, but I also like this quote: "I hate knife/car metaphors, but a Masamoto is pretty much a Porsche, and KS is their Turbo. Tad would be more like Lotus." :p

    But yes, I'm guilty of pasting without context... >.>
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2012
  8. chefedb

    chefedb

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    I course stone my knives weekly and fin stone almost daily. Using steel as I work.
     
  9. kingofkings

    kingofkings

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    The Artifex is only $119.95, the Ultimatum is $250, both in M390. Just for future knowledge.

    I'm not insecure about taking my CN to work at all, on the contrary I take it every day. Only about using it on the line due to the 'thin' tip (in relation to a Forschner, which personally I consider better for the abuse it gets during service).

    When you say 'project knives', could you explain what you mean? What do you think I should look at getting?
     
  10. duckfat

    duckfat

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    WOW those cost that much?  I recently posted a link on another thread that had detail photos. No matter what those cost it's going to take a lot of work (or a lot of $$) to turn them into decent knives. Now if you can do all of the work yourself (The project) then that may be another story. It still won't be cheap or easy and the only reason to take that on is if your determined to have M390.

    As far as what you should get I think it depends. Clearly you do not want a laser if your not into thin tips. If you want carbon then the Masamoto HC is a very good choice. The Sakai Yusuke from BluewayJapan (fleabay) is pretty much right at your price point and comes in both SS and carbon versions. If you're into the Dragon there's always the Misono which is running $190 so pretty much right at your budget as well. Since you've bought from Koki in the past you may like the standard WA Kagayki he sells.

    Dave

    http://korin.com/Misono-Swedish-Carbon-Steel-Gyutou?sc=27&category=280077
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
  11. franzb69

    franzb69

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    also might be worth checking out the new masazumi knives on cktg, it's in AEB-L and definitely better heat treat than some other knives of the same price in the same steel.

    =D
     
  12. wubu

    wubu

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    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
  13. franzb69

    franzb69

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    yes i think so.
     
  14. duckfat

    duckfat

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    They do not carry the SS version and no upgraded handle option but if you want carbon that's a very good option and a lot less $$ than a KS.

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2012
  15. franzb69

    franzb69

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    i really like the carbon sakai yusuke from reading about it. not too thin for a laser and not too expensive.

    =D
     
  16. kingofkings

    kingofkings

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    I didn't realise the problems with the Richmonds. I'll be keeping away from them. 

    I'm leaning towards the Masamoto HC at the moment, but I'm not really in a rush to buy because I don't want to make the same mistake as I did with my CN. 

    I appreciate your advice, whats your opinion on the MAC pro gyuto? Do you have any idea what the Masazumis are like from CKTG? 
     
  17. duckfat

    duckfat

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    I have never seen a Masazumi let alone handle one. Based on the price point I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope. IMO the Masamoto HC is simply a great working knife as is the CT. The Mac is just not my favorite knife but the fact is that it's a solid working knife at a fair price. I'd never pick one over the Masamoto but I make no bones about having a strong afinity for Masamoto and Suisin.

    Either way I don't see you making a poor choice with either one. You may also want to ask BDL about Sabatier if that's something that appeals to you but I know nothing about them.

    Dave
     
  18. kingofkings

    kingofkings

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    I already have a Nogent, based of BDLs recommendation. I really like it, but I can't help but want to try something else out.

    I'll wait on the Masazumis until they become a little more popular and see some reviews. I asked Mark about them, but he didnt tell me much. I suppose that is a sign in itself.

    The reason I'm considering a MAC, where I wasn't before is because I was talking to someone and they mentioned they are selling theirs, which has barely been used, for 150$, whereas once accounting in for postage, the Masamoto is going to cost just shy of 250$
     
  19. boar_d_laze

    boar_d_laze

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    A few things:

    1.  Richmond Ultimatum

    A significant majority of reviews of the Ultimatum have been positive.  If you don't count the reviews on the "Kitchen Knife Forum" it changes from a "significant majority" to a "vast majority."  This is unsurprising for a few reasons which don't have much to do with the particular knife. 
    • New products tend to be polarizing;
    • Nearly everyone LOVES what they just bought; and
    • The KKF represents a large number of people who don't like Mark Richmond, Richmond knives or CKtG.
    I have yet to use an Ultimatum, but bought one (in 52100, it should be here this coming week) on the basis of what I've read and heard. 

    The first thing you should consider is whether or not you want a "mighty gyuto," because -- at around 200gm and around 3mm thick above the chin -- that's what the Ultimatum is.  Which is to say it's about as thick as a Sabatier au carbone, and about as heavy as an au carbone would be if it was a wa-gyuto.  I bought mine partly with the idea of exploring the similarities.

    From all accounts the finish on the Ultimatum is very good, and so is the standard, OOTB Shaun Fernandez edge.  The idea that the Ultimatum is a "project knife" only makes sense for someone who bought one expecting it to be a complete clone of the Masamoto KS.  In fact, it only clones the KS's Sabatier-like profile -- but not its thinness, flex at the tip, or many other outstanding qualities.  On the other hand, I wouldn't cut the back out of a chicken with a KS.

    The moral of the story is that weight and thickness determine destiny, and if you're not interested in a "mighty gyuto" or at least something damn close, don't bother with an Ultimatum.  By way of adding a little nuance to the moral, I ordered the Ultimatum with the proviso that if I didn't like it I could turn it around and exchange it for the ever desirable KS.  The think about the KS is that my Konosuke HD occupies a too similar niche.   

    2.  Richmond Artifex

    The Artifex is a good, inexpensive knife, without any pretense to cosmetics, and which punches well about its price.  It's hallmark is value.  Period.  If you want to see what a decent knife but otherwise unspectacular knife is like in Bohler 390, you won't be able to do it any cheaper; but Bohler 390 won't turn an Artifex into a Masamoto KS -- or, for that matter, a Gesshin Ginga, Misono Sweden, Konosuke HH, Sakai Yusuke, etc., etc., etc.   

    Again, the key is knowing what to expect.  If what you really want to do is spend the least amount of money on a decent, right-sized knife born to work the line AND fool around with the alloy, it's a good choice.  If you want something else, you want something else.  Easy peasy.

    3.  Masamoto HC:

    The HC is Masamoto's best western handled, mass produced, carbon gyuto.  It's quite probably also the best western handled, mass produced carbon gyuto period.  There are other western handled, carbon gyuto which might be as good or even a little better, but they're less mass produced than (a) "semi-custom," and (b) also well out of your price range. 

    The HC is not a western handled version of the Masamoto KS.  They share a similar profile but the HC is thicker and heavier.  The KS is made from Shirogami #2, while the HC is made from another, very high end and very pure alloy -- perhaps Takefu VS2.  Although they share the same Sabatier type profile, if you really want a KS you won't be happy with an HC.

    As with all Masamoto western handled knives, you should ask the retailer to make sure that there are no gaps or cracks on the handle of the knife they ship you.  Otherwise F&F and QC are typically Masamoto.   

    I really, really like the HC, and think they're just that tiny bit better than Masamoto Sweden or the better Sabatier carbons.  If I didn't already have so many Sabs at the time I got interested in Japanese knives, I'd have a set of HCs. 

    4.  MAC Pro:

    The MAC Pro is an excellent western handled, mass-produced, stainless gyuto.  It's in the same league as the Masamoto VG; each knife having slightly different strengths and weaknesses, both made from the same (or a very similar) alloy which is either VG2 or something a helluva lot like it.  The VG is thinner, narrower, and very agile.  The MAC is a bit thicker, but much stiffer.  Both have better handles than your CN, your more likely to get good F&F, and I'd argue that both have better profiles as well.  On the other hand, a CN is less expensive and has considerably better edge taking and edge holding characteristics. 

    Hope this helps,

    BDL
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2012
  20. kingofkings

    kingofkings

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    BDL will you be posting a review of the Ultimatum?

    Out of a MAC pro, HC and Sab Nogent, which would you choose for working in a kitchen, for normal veg prep (dicing carrots, onions etc, no squashes/no breaking down proteins)?