bread does not rise in oven

Discussion in 'Pastries & Baking' started by john g, Aug 2, 2013.

  1. john g

    john g

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    Well I am new to the site but here goes with a couple of questions. Hope I am in correct forum group and problems not to basic.

    When I have a well rised dough, formed as I want double size after knock down and shaping, two issues.

    1 if I slash dough it immediately sinks like a pricked ballon and when placed in oven with steam tray does not get a final rise, this was using a french bread dough.

    2. Using a multigrain formed as a round, again the slashing did a little falling, when baked was a good loaf but yet again no rise in oven.

    I have an old aga and check temp with hanging thermometer.
    The whole grain was baked with tray on floor of oven, produced a great under crust and I sprayed loaf with water before bake and sprayed sides of oven for some steam. Just did not get any oven rise on loaf.

    The french bread I placed in middle of oven with tray under neath. Just before closing door I poured boiling water in tray and got great steam. The bread was great crust, fallen from my slashes and did not rise. Flavour was great as was crust. I did a cold ferment on dough for 20 hours before warm rise and shaping.

    Well there you have it. Probably trying to do things running before I can walk and a can of worms opened....

    All comments good and bad fully welcome.....john
     
  2. stuartscholes

    stuartscholes

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    Hi John,

    I'm wondering if you are maybe overproofing your dough. Your yeast feeds on the flour initially and multiplies. As it multiplies it continues to feed on the flour and creates bubbles of carbon dioxide that raise the bread. As the food source depletes, the yeast grows less active. If you leave it too long then there will not be enough food there for the yeast to regrow after knocking it back or slashing.

    Another problem could be with the hydration level of your dough. I'd imagine that your french dough is on the wetter side. This takes much more careful handling as the dough is heavier and so is much more prone to having the air knocked out of it.

    Use a very sharp knife to slash - you are trying to open up so the bread has room to expand, but not to knock the air below out. Also, go very gently with your dough, particularly wet doughs. CAREFULLY lay it down, and don't slam it in the oven or slam the door etc. Just treat it nicely. ;)

    If you want to post the recipe you used and your methods/times etc. I'd be glad to take a look.
     
  3. boar_d_laze

    boar_d_laze

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    There are a lot of possible flaws in your technique which alone or in combination could cause the lack of oven spring.     

    I can't really tell you what you're doing wrong, until I know what you're doing.  It's a lot, but please describe your entire process, with particular attention to how you mix, knead, proof, rest, "punch down," and form your loaves.  You don't have to include recipes if you don't want as the problem is almost certainly with technique; but if it's not too much trouble, go ahead. 

    BDL
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2013
  4. colin

    colin

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    Ditto the replies above.  It would be good to have the full recipe, and a word on temperatures at different stages.

    I get this problem when I overproof in the final rise, and/or when I do the final rise at too high a temperature.  Doing the final rise cold might give you more control.

    I usually bake when the loaf meets the poke-it-and-it-stays-poked test, which is generally before a full doubling, especially if I've taken care not to deflate too much during shaping.

    I'd suggest getting the oven spring working first, and then working on slashing, which is a harder art.  I've pretty much given up slashing wetter doughs because I can't get consistent results.
     
  5. john g

    john g

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    Thank you for your replies.

    I can see some of my problems already I think.

    The first french bread was a Mark Bittman recipe which is...

    3 1/2 cups (546 grams) bread flour 2 tsp. salt 1 tsp. instant yeast 1 1/2 cups water (or more)

    1. Process flour, salt, and yeast for a few seconds in food processor, using the metal blade. With the machine running, pour most of the water through the feed tube. Process about 30 seconds, or until dough becomes a sticky, shaggy ball. If it doesn't feel sticky, add more water.

    2. Turn dough into large bowl, and cover with plastic wrap. Let rise for two to three hours at room temperature.

    3. Sprinkle a little flour on the counter, and cut dough into three equal pieces. Shape each into long roll, and place in a lightly floured baguette pan. Cover with a towel, and let rise for another one to two hours. (On a cold day, you'll need the full rising time).

    4. About a half-hour before baking, put baking stone in oven, and skillet or pan on lowest shelf. Preheat oven to 450 degrees. When ready to bake, slash loaves with sharp knife and sprinkle lightly with flour. Put about 1/2 cup of ice cubes on pan on lowest shelf of the oven, and quickly put baguette pan on top of baking stone.

    5. Spray sides of oven after five minutes and again after ten minutes.

    6. Bake 25 to 35 minutes, until crust is golden brown. Cool on a wire rack.

    I followed it pretty well on quantities and dough was wet. When first rise I had the covered bowl on top of the aga slow hood and it doubled after 1.5 hours. I don't have the tray so simply formed my baguttes on a flat tray instead. I have a curved lahm and haven't got the technique at all so guess I should steer clear of slashing for awhile!

    Sounds like I handled it too much too.

    The second attempt was basically the same recipe but I let it do part of its first rise in fridge. Bringing it out after 20 hours and letting it sit on the aga to get going. This time I made two larger baguttes as three longer ones failed miserably. Again did all my rising on the aga. Slashed the final results, floped and again did not rise in oven.

    It is winter here and I live in the hills out of Melbourne and its pretty cold. Hence thinking the warmth of the aga a good spot. Maybe too hot?

    A basic white and a wholemeal loaf worked well white in tin and the other a hand formed round. All again did not rise in oven.

    I have oven at 230c in the middle. Of course I can't turn the temp down quickly just put everything lower in position.

    I thought I was killing of the yeast in too high an oven temp.....maybe I am killing it in too high a rise temp too quickly..

    Well that rambled on a bit but you did ask for info :)

    John
     
  6. john g

    john g

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    Oh and the flour is good quality bread flour....
     
  7. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    • 1.5 C water per 3.5 C flour, that's a really highly hydrated dough.
    1. Shouldn't need to add more water.
    2. Rising requires more than one to two hours.
    3. I prewarm my baking stone for at least an hour prior to inserting the dough into the oven.  And my oven is preheated to 500F.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  8. john g

    john g

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    Thanks for that.

    Am thinking I am rising too fast in too hot a space.

    The finger poke test would not work as after second rise there is a good crust already formed. Is this right? Or should the surface still be 'doughy'?
     
  9. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    When dough "doubles" which is a misunderstood term imho, it doubles in volume and not length/width/height or even diameter.  For example when making a boule (assume a perfectly spherical shape), for it to double in volume, it's final radius (or diameter) will measure approx 1.2X the original radius (or diameter).

    (EDIT)  1.26 (cubed) = the cubed root of 2.  (EDIT)   And what's the volume of a perfect sphere.....

    Depending on hydration the finally proofed dough can be either sticky or dry (EDIT) when it's placed into the oven.  At 50% hydration the surface of my dough is dry thus giving a very sharp ear.  At 60% hydration the ear, once fully baked, blends in with the surface of the loaf more or less:  smooth.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  10. john g

    john g

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    Thanks for that info...its 11.45 pm here now will do a bake tomorrow and take in your feedback.
     
  11. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    My previous post has been edited.

    Think about making a poolish the night before, around 2100 hrs.  Then the next morning, around 0900 hrs, mix the remaining ingredients into the poolish and within three hours you'll have bread bursting out of the oven.  No need to wait all day long like you're doing for the rise; during the night deep into darkness, when the fairies and elves are totally awake and intermingling,  the poolish that develops will allow the yeast to multiply and the enzymes to produce more sugars thus giving a faster activity during the next morning.  ...And a much better flavor thanks to the extra sugars that developed during the night.

    -Winkin', Blinkin' and Nod..................
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
  12. stuartscholes

    stuartscholes

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    Sorry to disagree, but 42% is not a highly hydrated dough. In fact it's EXTREMELY low, French doughs are usually in the 60%+ mark. Are you certain that's the correct recipe, it must be awfully difficult to work with. Also, rising may require more than one to two hours in some circumstances, but it will depend on the temperature at which it is kept. I put mine in the window in the sun (yes - we have sun in Scotland!) and it usually takes no more than an hour to rise.

    If you are leaving it in a warm place then I seriously suspect that you're over-proofing it and that the yeast has 'eaten' virtually all its food by the time that you put it in the oven. Also, to stop your dough getting a crust, oil it lightly and cover it with OILED cling film (I don't know whether that's called something different where you are, but it's the clear plastic cooking wrap that sticks using (I think) electrostatic). Make sure you oil it or it WILL stick when the dough comes into contact and you'll lose some of the rise when you pull it back off.

    Finally (for now!), I doubt you're handling it too much. You don't seem to have any real kneading process there. The kneading process is pretty well essential unless you are leaving it to prove for a VERY long time, think 24 - 48 hours. When you knead the bread you encourage the gluten molecules to form chains which will give the bread structure and elasticity. This will happen naturally given long enough (such as with sourdough breads - a sourdough loaf takes me 2 - 3 days to prove, but bear in mind that the sourdough yeasts are much weaker than cultivated shop-bought yeasts and my house is generally cool), but if you are only waiting 2 - 4 hours you may find that you are not giving it enough time to develop the structure. You can see evidence of this when you knead for 5 - 10 minutes - your dough will start off quite wet and sticky and will cover your hand in sticky dough (I knead with 1 hand at first so I don't get too messy), but as you continue you'll find it 'comes together' and will form a firm, non-sticky dough - until you stop kneading.

    Try a very basic recipe as below to start with (I'll work in grams because that's what I'm familiar with, and I'm sure you have scales ;)):

    500g strong bread flour

    300g lukewarm water

    8g salt

    15g fresh yeast

    10g veg oil (optional)

    Stir the salt into the water (to help it dissipate through the flour more evenly). Put the yeast in a bowl, then add the flour and oil if using. Add the water and stir to combine, but don't worry too much. Tip out and knead until it forms a firm dough, no less than 5 mins, probably closer to 10. Lightly oil the bread and tip into a very large proving bowl (preferably the one you used to mix the ingredients originally, just to save on mess!) and cover with cling film. Leave in a warm place to rise for around an hour, you'll see it considerably increase in size, that's what you're looking for.

    Tip it out gently onto a floured surface and form a loaf shape by gently pulling the corners in and folding it until it has something that looks a bit like a belly button, but don't mess around for ages with it. Put that into your loaf tin (I always butter mine, even non-stick ones) with the belly button on the bottom, the top should be smooth and seamless. Alternatively put it on a baking tray if you're going for a bloomer type bread, but it's important that the seam is on the bottom.

    Leave (covered in oiled cling film) for about an hour in a warm place to rise again (this is when you would put oven on to preheat if you were using one). Put it carefully in the oven and bake until brown and light. Don't forget to leave it for a while (at least half an hour) on a wire rack to finish cooking and dry out after you take it out.

    Have a crack at that, it's a good starting point to build on. Bread-baking is such a nice thing, you'll really enjoy getting into it.
     
  13. kokopuffs

    kokopuffs

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    post deleted and sorry.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  14. petemccracken

    petemccracken

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    From the OP
    • 546g flour
    • 340g water (1 1/2 cups x 8floz/cup x 28.3495g/oz)
    • 340g/546g x100 = 62.4% hydration
    From StuartScholes:
    • 500g flour
    • 300g water
    • 300g/500g x 100 = 60% hydration
    Hydration, to me, does not seems to be the problem here.

    The OP's measurement of flour raises a minor question: 546g for 3 1/2 cup equates to 156g/cup or 5.5oz. Seems a little on the high side for weight/cup, but then again...that has no impact on the hydration calculation because the OP included the weight of flour.
     
  15. stuartscholes

    stuartscholes

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    EDIT: Pete, how does the cup system work then? Is a cup of water different to a cup of flour?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 4, 2013
  16. petemccracken

    petemccracken

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    A cup of water is always 8 fluid ounces (volume) or 236.588mL(volume) or 8 ounces (weight) or 236.588g (weight)

    Flour, on the other hand, does NOT have a direct volume to weight ratio, it not only depends on the way the flour was ground, but also the way it is handled to measure the volume, i.e. scoop and strike, sifted, spooned, etc., as well as the relative humidity and storage conditions.

    The safe way to discuss bread baking hydration, and the basis of bakers percentages, is weight, not volume.

    As I showed above, the OP listed the weight of flour and also the approximate volume. IMHO, NEVER trust a volume calculation for flour!

    Depending on the type of flour, the way it is measured, and the humidity, a cup of flour (volume) may weigh as little as 4 ounces (115g) to as much as 7 1/2 ounces (216g).

    So, it is readily apparent that volume measurements are very unreliable for flour.

    Safest way? Weigh everything!
     
     
  17. soesje

    soesje

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    I also third the overproofing.

    when you have too much gas developing and the prod test does not come out like when prodding, it stays then its overly gassy and will deflate.

    also when you have got a highly moist dough you have to handle carefully.

    have you ever considered doing the second (after final shaping) in a basket/ banneton , then proof about half way, put in fridge to retard, bake the next day.

    the dough will firm up, you can then turn it out onto a hot baking sheet/ baking stone and bake.

    will be easier to slash the dough too and will have more oven spring.

    just a thought.

    but a 90% dough is high water content...more like the italian ciabattas instead of french which is supposed to be lower moisture....as mentioned above. 

    (ten years experience in baking bread and specialized in sourdoughs...)
     
  18. petemccracken

    petemccracken

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    Psst, the dough was NOT 90% hydration, closer to 60-65%, look at the OP's recipe.
     
  19. soesje

    soesje

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    ah thanks ;) just came out of busy service ;) good excuse, innit? ;) 
     
  20. john g

    john g

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    Yawns, opens eyes and reaches for a coffee...good morning to you all..

    I am inspired by your comments and suggestions and have learnt more in this thread about bread than I expected....many thanks.

    Now to brass tacks....it seems evident to me that I have been killing off my yeast before it actually hits the oven. Sun in Scotland? I used to work on South Uist so know you must be close to Hadrian's wall :) yet I appreciate the lesson on temperature enough to get a rise.

    The suggested recipes WILL be taken up , I'll do one today and report back tonight. I'll try your guide Stuart today and go back to my french on Monday with a poolish.

    Sleep well those that are dozing but again many thanks

    Later.........